Myrna gave a talk to the women of the Trial Lawyers Association of BC in Whistler, BC on October 22, 2022. She discussed boundaries, self-regulation, the consequence of never saying no and feeling like a smeagol in a room full of frodos. Enjoy!
Bonus episode. Myrna gave a talk to the women of the Trial Lawyers Association of BC in Whistler, BC on October 22, 2022. She discussed boundaries, self-regulation, the consequences of never saying no and feeling like a smeagol in a room full of frodos. Enjoy!
🎵 AUDIO/MUSIC CUE🎵
>> Myrna McCallum : I'm Myrna McCallum, Metis Cree lawyer and passionate promoter of Trauma informed layering. Welcome back to the Trauma Informed Lawyer Podcast. As you know, I believe that law schools and bar courses are missing a critical competency requirement in their curriculum. Trauma Informed Lawyering. Becoming a Trauma Informed lawyer will, among other things, challenge you to critically reflect on your personal behaviors, beliefs and biases, call on you to positively transform the way you approach advocacy, guide your practice to avoid doing further harm to others, and ask that you commit to remaining open to learn new and old knowledge you didn't know you needed before beginning your career. Your education starts right here, right now. Transcripts for season two have been generously sponsored by the BC Law Foundation.
🎵 AUDIO/MUSIC CUE🎵
>> Myrna McCallum : Welcome back to another episode of the Trauma Informed Lawyer Podcast. I've got a bonus episode for you. On Friday, I posted that I was heading up to Whistler BC for the weekend to join the Trial Lawyers association in bc. They were having their women's retreat, women's conference, and they asked me to come present to them on the subject of boundaries. And that's exactly what I did. So when I posted about it, a number of folks on LinkedIn said, I want to hear that talk. I want to hear that talk. I wish I was going. I wish I was there. So I decided to record it and offer it to you here. And it's, hopefully you feel almost like you were there. I edit it a little bit for quality and time. And I hope you enjoy this bonus episode. If you support this podcast, want to see it continue, and especially want to see it continue ad free. Please go and leave me a tip. K-O-F I.com forward slash the trauma informed lawyer. I'd appreciate it so much.
>> Myrna McCallum : Okay, here we go. I was really struggling with what to say to this group of people. Why? Because you're all very accomplished women, successful. I mean, what do I have to offer you? This was the thing that was, like, going round and round in my head. And I was like, oh, my God, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna say? And I was, like, expressing to Elsa how, like, uncertain I was. Normally, I'm okay, but this time I was pretty uncertain. And then I was thinking about boundaries and some of the things that I'm learning. And, I thought, you know, I can never know what it's like to live your life, to be in your skin, to have the lived experiences that you have. So what I'm going to do today, this morning for this hour is just share a little bit about My life and my lived experience and some of the things I learned. I'm going to begin with, saying that, when I. I started off in criminal law, it was. It was the thing I never wanted to do. Like, at the bar chorus, somebody said to me, you should consider criminal law. I'm like, no, there's too much feelings over there. Too many crying people. I was like, no, that's not for me. but then I decided to go home to Northern Saskatchewan. So I left after I did pltz and a little stint at Vandal Pinder, which is kind of my home. And I still love them. They love me. I went back to Northern Saskatchewan. I was in legal aid, the legal aid office for a little bit. Then I went and became, ah, the Crown prosecutor's office poached me on a flight home one day. We can mentor you if you want to come on over. And so I was like, okay. And so what I learned in that work is that, ah, every time I was stepping into a courtroom, I was on the front lines of your human suffering, like, every day. I wasn't prepared for that. Why? I mean, I grew up in a really violent household. I had a horrible childhood. I was in and out of care. I went to residential school. So you can, like, put the pieces together to imagine what kind of trauma I went through. And so one of my survival mechanisms was to just feel nothing. Like, if I could just feel nothing, I could get through the world. And that worked for a really long time. Then I got into, prosecuting. And as soon as I was standing in court and I was seeing women with bruises and all kinds of physical wounds, it was a trigger for what I grew up with watching my mother, anytime I worked on files that involved children, it was a trigger. And I didn't realize then that we all have these triggers. After I came out of that, and maybe halfway through my adjudication experience, I got to understand what trauma is, what triggers are. And for folks who listen to my podcast, you know, I'm always talking about, how do we become trauma informed in the work we do, whether we're judges or we're lawyers or we're police officers, like, all I do is go talk to those people to look at ways in which we can bring emotional intelligence into the spaces we work. And why? Because when I went to law school and through Bult, you see, no one ever talked to me about vulnerability or empathy or humility or trauma. And so I. I was prepared to work with people's legal issues, but not much Else, definitely not their pain, not their suffering. And so when it came up, I was like, can you just put that aside and let's have a conversation about what's happening? And then I realized as I was working through that process, and then when I got into the residential school process, those things are just intertwined. Like, you can't separate them. Law is emotional. And I think we just have to accept that law is emotional. People who come to us don't come to us because they're like, oh, I want to go see a lawyer today. No, Right. Oh, I just want to call my lawyer, see how she's doing, what's up? No, they come to us out of, like, necessity, right? It's a relationship of necessity. And oftentimes when they come to us, they're terrified. They're afraid, right? There's fear of loss. Fear of, like, loss of home, loss of children, loss of money, loss of a deal, loss of freedom. All kinds of loss, right? And so as I started to go through this process and I got to thinking about how people show up, had to inevitably start to think about how I'm showing up. And early on, I realized, and maybe in part because of my horrific childhood, I had no boundaries. Like, I didn't know how to say no. Even when I wanted to say no, I would say yes, all the time. So I'll give you an example where I was working in northern Saskatchewan. We go into these flying communities, and sometimes court would run till 7 or 8 at night. When I was the prosecutor, what did that mean? That meant I'm standing all day, and I'm talking all day as, different criminal defense lawyers come and go. It's still me, right? And you know, the judge would say, okay, we're gonna go. Like, we're gonna go till 7. We're gonna go till 8. And then by the time we get to the plane and you get home, it's probably gonna be 11. It's gonna be really late. Is that a problem for you, Ms. McCollum? Nope. Nope. Let's go. And, you know, I also had like, I think this martyr syndrome. Like, I could keep going. I remember there were days when it's like three o', clock, and I'm thinking, I've needed to peace. It's like 12 o'. Clock. And I remember telling a friend of mine who's a nurse, I'm like, man, some days I'm like, oh, my God, I gotta go. But I'm standing and I'm giving submissions. She's like, myrna when you're older, that's gonna come back to bite you. Now that I'm like pushing 50, I know what she means, what she said. So I never said no. And one day, I was in another courtroom and the judge had said, we're working on a really like, it was a complicated multi day trial. And the judge had said to both I and the criminal defense lawyer, going to go until one of you dies. So if we're here till like 10 o', clock, we're going till 10 o'. Clock. And I'm like, okay, because no boundaries. And I love my opposing counsel because she stood up. She's like, no, we're not staying here until one of us dies. She's like, I've got a family, I've got children. I got to go home and make dinner. The longest I'm going to give this today is 6:00pm we end at 6. And I was like, man, I can't imagine saying no, right? And so I started to think as time went on about what it means when we don't say no or when we, you know, when we just sort of move the no go zone that we establish in our minds and men move the line to accommodate relationships. Like to accommodate a relationship or to just stay in a workplace that is maybe not healthy, a little toxic, right? And we just keep moving the line, moving the line. So I really believe that we all need to cultivate boundaries. We need to accept them, we need to talk about them. And you know, as I'm doing this work, that I do now, talking about ton about trauma, informed lawyering and judicial practice and policing and all of those things, I definitely have a little bit of like, I think what I call Smeagol syndrome. Anyone who's watched like the Lord of the Rings, right, I'm like, I'm just Smeagol in these spaces of like all these Frodos. I really feel that way some days. And, and right now I'm gearing up to do like a 12 month project with Gabor Mate, who is the like, if you don't know who he is, oh my God, he's everywhere. He's like an expert in addiction and trauma. And we're going to do a series of trauma talks for a thousand, PPSC prosecutors. And we're going to do it every month for about a year. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm like Smeagol. And I'm going to sit with Frodo and he's gonna know that I'm Just a Smeagol. And so what do I do? Like, I pick up the myth of normal. I'm reading everything. I'm watching all his tick tocks, I'm looking at his Instagram. I'm trying to consume and, like, absorb through. I don't know what that process is. Everything that he has learned over, you know, he's almost 80 years old. And I'm like, oh, my God, how am I gonna learn this by the first time we gather for this talk in, like, a month? And then I realize after this panic reading and panic listening, I realized, wait a second. So here's another, like, movie reference. I thought, you know, if he's a bird, I'm a bird, right? So if you, like, love the Notebook. You know what I mean? So I started to think about that. Like, I have something to offer in that space. There's a reason I was asked to be on that stage with him to deliver this. I have a lived experience that he can't comprehend. Particularly as an indigenous woman who's worked in the criminal justice system and the human rights system and all kinds of systems. As soon as I started to think about that, I realized, I'm not Smeagol in this situation. I, too. And so that mindset is going to help me actually be present for those thousand prosecutors who need an education and trauma and boundaries and all those other things that come with it. And so I share that story with you because I think I'm not the only woman who feels that way, who feels like, at a place, who feels. Feels like, oh, maybe I don't belong. what am I doing here? I'm the Smeagol in the courtroom, and everybody knows it or whatever it may be. We all have insecurities. And as I listen to Gabor, I'm like, you know, we live in a time of, He says the. The culture we live in just loves us to feel inadequate. Right. And I think that's kind of a common thread, particularly amongst women. Why? Because as I start to read about the experiences of women, I begin to learn a little bit about how, I think many of us are raised to be peacekeepers, like, just keep the peace. So what does that mean? You don't say no, right? You accommodate other people. You accommodate bullshit situations, and you just say nothing. You hold on to the anger, you hold on to the resentment. You hold on to the rage, you hold on to the pain. And as I'm learning more about how that impacts our bodies, I'm realizing that there are studies that say that women who have had this practice have been conditioned in this way tend to have higher rates of, like, illness, particularly, autoimmune diseases, like 80 to 90%, according to Gabor. Mate is like all women who have like, autoimmune diseases. He talks about how, holding things in ultimately manifests an illness. And that got me thinking about, a friend of mine. Ah, Dr. Amar Dahl. If you listen to my podcast, we talked about emotional intelligence. He's a lawyer turned psychotherapist, but he's also got a degree in quantum mechanics. And he's like a well known, like, rapper. He's like, he's diverse. And so I remember when I was going, like we were going to do the podcast and I was like, oh, shit. Like, this guy is intellectually out of my league and I don't know if I'm going to keep up. it ended up being a pretty good conversation, I think. But one of the things that he said which has really stuck with me is he says, myrna, when it's a, competition or a contest between the body and the brain, the body always wins. And I started to think about, like, what does that mean? How, how does that manifest for me? How have I seen that in other people? And it got me thinking about, a day I had in court once when I was prosecuting. It was a long day. And I find for me, when I'm not listening to my brain that's telling me I'm tired, I'm exhausted, I need to take a break. The first red flag that shows up for me is my voice. It changes. For anyone who's listened to my podcast for a long time, you could hear it right when it shifts. And so we're in court one day, long day. We're doing a final bail hearing of the night of the night. It's like night court. And, my voice just stopped working. And we had to finish the bail hearing with me doing a thumbs up and a thumbs down and then someone reporting that on the record, it's like bananas. So for me, that was an example of exactly what Amar is talking about. When it's a competition between the brain and the body, the body always wins. Think about how women, sometimes we don't say what we to say. There are all these no's that we're feeling, but they come out as yes. Or there's this rage that's stuck in our throat because we don't want to, like, you know, rock the boat, right? All the ways in which we allow either our boundaries to just completely go by the wayside, to stay in spaces that are having, like, a profound adverse effect on us. And I share this with you because I think that we need to prioritize our own wellness and our own well being. And I think it begins with getting comfortable with saying no. So, like, I have a couple friends. Every day we check in. How many times did you say no today? Like, whatever it was. Even if it's like going to seven, the guy's like, oh, and do you want taquitos with your, like, I don't know, with your, your Slurpee? No, I do not. Thank you. Right, so whatever it takes to say no, try to say no. Just, you know, and if you're somebody who isn't comfortable saying no, and when someone comes to you, can you take this? Can you take this? Can you run this trial? Can you go to this thing? Can you do that? And you're like, yes, yes, yes. Why? Because I'm a martyr. And I can keep going and I can keep going and keep going until I, like, fall on my face and die. I mean, when that happens, I've heard it's not long before somebody starts to look, look for your replacement, right? Start to say no. Think about what your boundaries are. Like, what is it for you? You know, I was in a room with a whole bunch of lawyers not that long ago, and I said, okay, how many of you have boundaries? Like, in the workplace? And like, there's a whole bunch of folks, I think three people raise their hands, and I was like, okay, okay, no judgment. That's all right. Thank you for raising your hand. That takes courage. I said, okay. Of you three, have you communicated your boundaries to anybody? Nope. Okay, so how does anyone know what your no go zone is if you don't tell people what it is? Right? And it's such a simple practice, and I think sometimes we maybe need to take baby steps to get there, to tell people what our no go zone is. And so I invite you to think a little bit about what your no go zone is. Like, what triggers you, what pushes you away, what sets you off, what causes you to shut down. So in this, like, whole trauma world that I seem to be occupying right now, there's like these four, like, trauma responses or survival responses, fight. Which I think we all know when we see right flight, which I've mastered pretty well, right? I just walk away all the time. It's a terrible practice. Terrible practice. Not just saying what I need, instead walking out the door. I've done that in personal Relationships. I've done it in work relationships and workplaces. Not good. And freeze. Where you just shut down. You're dissociated, disconnected. And then Fawn. Fawn is the thing. And like, the. All the workplace investigations I do right now around racism, bullying, harassment. I hate doing that work, by the way. I'll just put it out there. I think I'm done doing that stuff. Just the vibe is, like, brings me down. But one of the things. One of the things that I witnessed, and observed over, like, and particularly working with women who are complainants is that, they. I think Fawn a lot. So Fawn is like, you just keep saying yes when you mean no. You take more. You never want to. Cause, you know, you never want to disrupt anything. You want to smooth things over all the time. So you have no boundaries. You become almost codependent, right? Relationships are like, there's no rules there. And it just breaks people down. It causes them to feel worthless. It causes them to feel like there's no value. And it allows, for these dynamics where they're just constantly being, like, bounced around without any kind of personal agency over how they're going to do what they do. And I see that one a lot, that Fawn response. And so I invite you to think about what your survival responses. Because I think we all have something that we default to, and maybe they shift from time to time. So is it fight? Is it flight? Is it freeze?
>> Myrna McCallum : Is it fun?
>> Myrna McCallum : Think about it. I used to be a scrapper, but I'm old now. So now I just run away, walk away, leave, right? But I'm getting better at saying no, no, no, no, no. Right? And what I've also learned to embrace and accept, and I invite you to do the same is understand that no is a full sentence. I don't need to explain how busy I am, that I can't do this thing or whatever it is, or why I can't go for a hike with you or why I can't meet you for coffee. Just. No, no, the other piece. I'm also learning how to not say, I'm sorry. So, like, I get these invitations, right, to, like, can you come do this talk and do this thing? I would normally say, I'm really sorry. I'm, like, at capacity. I'm beyond capacity. Very sorry, but no. Now I'm just like, no, I cannot. I am m unavailable. Good luck with your send. And so it's becoming, like, an empowering thing to learn how to re. Like, program my mind and How I communicate, especially because I had no boundaries. I let people walk all over me, and I felt many times like I deserved it. So when I was doing adjudication work, for those of you who don't know, like, that was hell. Like, I went through hell, and I wasn't the same. It nearly destroyed me. I've talked about it on the podcast every day. I was in a story of, like, the torture of children, of indigenous children, right? In some way, death of children, witnessing death of children. As somebody who went to residential school, like, I was hearing my story a lot in people, and it was like, it was devastating. And I didn't know how devastated I was becoming until I was long past the point of devastation. One of the things I remember being in a hearing and a, survivor said to me, he's like, I never talked about this. 50 years I've held onto this story, and in order for me to get justice, to get compensation, I have to fucking come here and answer your questions and bring all this up. He's like, where are you gonna be when I have night terrors tonight and I'm feeling like total shit? And he says to me, I'll never forget it. He literally gestures. He's like, this is yours now. And me.
>> Myrna McCallum : And not having any boundaries, I was like, okay, I'll take that. I'm an who's asking you questions, right? And I carried that. And I realized with a lot of folks who were coming into that space, I was taking their pain, I was carrying it, I was holding it, I was putting it on my back, you know, and it's, like, shown up in the weight that I carry now on my ass and everywhere else, right? Like, I start. Started to see how when we don't put the pain and the suffering down of other people, we carry that. And we need to also acknowledge that, yes, a lot of people who come to us are suffering. They're afraid, they're scared, they've gone through something heavy. But that's not for us to carry. We don't own it. We're not responsible for those individuals. We don't need to take them home, coddle them, or hold their pain. The best thing that we could do for any individuals in those moments is just witness. We're a witness anyway. Witness what it is that they're experiencing. Acknowledge the courage it takes to show up in spaces where oftentimes people are known to have, like, a unjust experience, right? And then put it down. Tell yourself, this is not for me to carry. This doesn't belong to me. It's not mine. I didn't harm this person. I'm doing my best. And put it down. Because if you don't, you're going to take on everyone's pain and suffering and it's going to, like, weigh you down. It's going to find you in these really unhealthy spaces. What do I mean by that? Doom scrolling, Watching tik tok for 18 hours. I've been there, you know, like, swiping left, swiping right, doing, like, taking risks you would never normally do, going to the wine cooler, like, a lot, right? Like there's all these ways in which it starts to show up. We have headaches. We start to feel like, I hate this job. I can't do this anymore. Right? Those are signals of burnout. You start to carry all the world's pain. Your. Your view of the world becomes distorted. Like, everything's dark, everything's dangerous, everything's shit. There's just injustice everywhere, right? This. Where's the humanity, right? And we start. We can get lost down in that little rabbit hole. It's really important that as you begin to explore what your boundaries are and you figure those things out for yourself, you connect it back to what your survival response is like. Because I often hear lawyers say I have to armor up before I go into a courtroom. And my fear is if we keep armoring up before we go into a legal process, and I get why we feel we need to do that, because I've been there. We need to realize that if we're armoring up to protect ourselves from whatever it is that's going to happen in that space in that day, we're also, like, suppressing all the good that exists in us. Our compassion, our humility. Humility, our humanity, our empathy, all of that gets lost behind the armor. And this is how our processes become dehumanizing, demoralizing, and people walk away just feeling totally disrespected. They walk away feeling unseen, unheard, and like nothing they said mattered. That is not the effect we want to have on people, right? We want them to feel seen. We want them to feel hurt. We want them to know. Know that what they said mattered. But I don't think we get there until or unless we offer ourselves something first. Until we embrace and accept that I deserve to be seen, I deserve to be heard, and what I say matters. And I think it needs to become a mantra that you say all the time, plus another one that an old friend of mine taught me. I belong here. So when I'm having those Smeagol moments, like, God, I'm just in a room with Frodos and I'm just a smeagle, I will say I belong here. Fuck that, I belong here. I will just. You need that self talk. And when you figure out what is your trigger, is it the all caps opposing counsel who like sends you emails at like 10 at night, right? Is that a trigger for you? Is it the way a judge looks at you, right, like you're an idiot? Is it the way a managing partner speaks to you or a colleague speaks to you or a client addresses, you? Or you know, in my case, I had like this one lawyer who every time he came into the courtroom, he'd wink at me. Hated it. I get called sweetheart. And I was like, asshole. Anyway, so we have to figure out what these things, things are. And when they come up, we need to explore for ourselves what's a healthy way of communicating instead of reacting. Right? Because I think we live in a reactionary world. All CAPS emails, reply all just are disconnecting. No one can get you on email anymore because you're just not replying because you're like pieced out. You're on the Sofa watching like 18 hours of Netflix. you have to think about what that's going to, to be. And what I have found to be really helpful is compassion recognizing. I think everyone's going through their own battle. Like everyone's fighting a war. And nothing is about me. M. That's probably another big lesson I learned is whether you like me or loathe me or think I'm an idiot or whatever it is, or think I'm just amazing, that's really not about me. It's got everything to do with you. So once I've learned how to depersonalize, I'm like kind of walking on cloud nine. I'm like, nothing's about me. And like people really don't notice you either anymore. Like with the cell phone addiction we all seem to suffer from, everyone's wrapped up in their world. Nobody really sees other people. Which is why I think it's important to invest in actually spending time seeing, seeing people, letting people know. I see you and I hear you. As we start to think about back to those triggers, right? What do you do? How do you communicate? Don't react. You need a self regulation practice. This is where boundaries come in. How do I respond when I'm totally put off by somebody or when they push me away or when they cause me to get a Little ragey or whatever it is. Right, right. What do you do? I think it's different things for different people. Some people. Deep breaths, right? Just take a deep breath. I had to learn how to breathe. I had no idea I was only breathing up to here until I met someone who taught me actually how to breathe down into here. so deep breaths, Just talking to yourself. Self talk. I belong here. I belong here. I am not a smeagle. I belong here. Right? I earn my space here at this place here. I'm okay to take up space or. This isn't about me. This isn't about me. A lot of folks I work with tell me how that helps them a lot. Or taking five minutes. Just step away from whatever it is before you respond. I mean, think about your personal lives, folks. When you've been in like a little battle with somebody you love, if, like it's escalating, does that ever go in a good place? No. No. Somebody's like, I'm moving out. I hate you. And then they get as far as like the parking lot and they're like, I'm back. Right? So what I've learned about that response, because I was constantly triggered all the time, but always like into shutdown, because that was like my ammo was to just shut down, is that when you come out of being rational. There's like a term for it. It's called the window of tolerance. Dan Siegel, who's a psychiatrist, came up with this term the window of tolerance. We all have a window of all the shit that we can handle, right? Some of us, it's these teeny little windows. And we know those lawyers, teeny little windows. Some are really big, big windows. And sometimes it changes depending on the environment we're in. Are windows bigger at home, but maybe small at the office or vice versa? So what I've learned is that, when we're in this window, we can communicate really well. We are rational, we are connected, we can listen actively, we can make good decisions. When we come out of the window, we either come into a state of hyperarousal, so fight flight, or hypoarousal, which is freeze font. So hyper hypo. So right into one of those trauma stress responses. Right? Survival response. Psychologists say that when we come into one of those states, we are no longer rational, we are no longer clear headed, we can no longer make good decisions. And that's the time to stop asking somebody questions and to stop engaging in the conversation. This is helpful for you to understand about yourself. Like if I'm feeling a little out of my window. I need to know that I have to stop because it's not going to go anywhere good if I let that person keep hammering me or if I decide to engage. Right. And then it's helped me in my practice when I work with people, I'll tell them a little bit about this window. So I say, how's your window today? So little. Is it big? How are we doing? And you need to give me a signal when you're coming out of your window. Just do this, do something. Do I? I don't know. And as soon as I see that signal, I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna ask for a break. I'm gonna do something. Five minutes is all it takes to just bring yourself back. And then you're rational again. You can make good decisions. Keep this in mind about yourself because this is also where boundaries begin. Right. I need to stop. And if someone's still hammering you, you need to say, this is not going to go anywhere. We're good. If this conversation continues, we need to stop. And then you come back. If it's ever a choice between disappointing someone else or disappointing yourself, always disappoint the other person. Because every time you say yes when you mean no, it has an impact on your body. Like it stays somewhere in your body and it can show up as toxic. Stress, burnout, illness, hives, all kinds of things. Laryngitis, can't speak anymore. Right. Whatever it might be. So think about what your window is and how you will communicate when you notice you're coming out of your window or what's the thing that you do to self regulate, to keep calm, stay engaged, stay present, stay within your window. One of the benefits of doing that is that we have the ability to regulate everyone around us just by being regulated. It's called co regulation. So the more calm I am, in the face of you screaming at me or going, why the fuck do I, you know, have to, be answering these questions? I would, in that, in that dynamic, I would just say, you know, I can hear the anger in your voice. I could see the grief on your face. I will acknowledge what I said, see, and what I hear. This is the compassion. Right? I can never know what that experience was like for you, but I'm here to listen to you today. And I know this process isn't perfect, but I'm gonna try to do my best to be here for you, to be present for you today. People are always surprised when you meet their rage with compassion and empathy. And the other thing is because like random rage needs fire and that's the thing that keeps fueling it. You're not feeding it. So it just kind of goes away and people will come back down. But you don't get there without a solid self regulation practice, right? You need that for yourself. You need to remember it's not about me, it's never about us. And so being able to help people stay calm and regulated is such a gift. Because all of that trickles out into your workplace. Everyone in your orbit benefits from a self regulated. You just like, if you're not self regulated and your hair's on fire all the time, people will be like walking on eggshells around you, right? And we know those people, like, I'm going to be very like quick about any questions I have for that individual this morning, right? So it's important to, to build this practice and I don't think it happens overnight, but the benefits are really profound. And this is how we transform how we do what we do and and the relationships that we have in our lives. Once I had this opposing counsel who, you know, he was triggering me because he would always communicate with me in all caps, like all, all caps. And my daughter would say, you all caps him right back, he's such an asshole. And I'm like, no, I'm not gonna do that. so instead I phoned him one day and I'm like, dude, are you okay? You're sending me all caps? Like, is your keyboard broken? And so, and then it was like, you know, like he didn't know it. And I think that's the thing that we need to recognize is that when people are in these like high stress states because of years of armoring up, they lose self awareness. And that also means us, we lose self awareness too. And it takes a moment for someone to go, are you okay? To stop us in our tracks to go, whoa. I remember last year I was talking to a bunch of lawyers and among them were a lot of seniors council. And probably a month later I get an email from this guy who's been practicing as long as I've been alive. He's like, you know, until I listen to you, I never once thought to call opposing counsel and say, you know, we're about to go, like, if this is family law, he's like, we're about to go through a really, difficult process, a really difficult process with this family. What can we do to make it less harmful and less traumatizing? He says, I've never Ever called anyone to ask them that. And he says, and then all of a sudden, this guy's telling me stuff about, like, how he's doing in, in the. In the profession, and it's not good. And then I start disclosing how I'm doing, and some of it's not good. And then they had this, like, I don't know, this, like, Oprah moment where they're like, I don't know. it changed the way he practices after so many years, and he said it changed his relationships, and it changed the way he saw opposing counsel. Like, they're not just a bunch of dicks, right? He started to see the humanity in everyone who's in the courtroom and everyone who's going through these legal processes. I thought that, that, that was pretty transformative. So what I want to, like, spend my last little bit talking to you about is identifying, like, burnout, identifying compassion fatigue, identifying when you're not doing well. I think we have to have a committed practice to this, and what it takes really, is self awareness. We have to do the scary thing of looking within, right? Like, how am I doing? What kind of practice do I have that keeps me ready for the next fight? Like, I really want to see everyone in this profession, like, as. With as much passion and purpose as you have coming into this profession, I want to see people leave with that. When we're armored up to do the job that we're called to do, right? Because, like, being on the front line, I think of human and suffering can, like, just. Just compels us to do that, just to show up in it every day that, we suppress everything. We push it down, we push it down, we push it down. We don't deal with it. And then we open the next file like, I don't know who's with me, but I could tell you there was a time in my life where I was, like, immediately closing a file, opening another, running a trial, running a bail hearing, doing another thing, doing another. I never saw stopped, like, clearly never stopped to pee, but, like, never stopped for, like, much else. I sure wasn't like, oh, how am I doing? How, how did that impact me? Never did any of that think we're kind of sold on this idea that when we come into this profession, we come into these spaces, we're just dealing with legal issues, but we're not. We're dealing with human beings. We're dealing with pain and suffering, and that stuff can get stuck to us, right? And it can have an impact on our relationships, you know, I'm huge on like, collective care practices because self care, I think only goes so far. And self care, when I talk to people, they're like, what? I say, what's your self care practice? Oh, I get like manicures, you know, pedicures. I'm like, that is not self care. Like, that's just like, I don't know, skin care, body care, right? Oh, I have a hot bath. no, no, no, you're just cleaning yourself. Like, that's basic. What do you do for self care? Like, how do you actually intentionally think about what you've been exposed to and put that down? Build positive coping mechanisms, healthy coping mechanisms. And so I just had Justice Band on my podcast. I love him. He's one of my favorite judges. He's in Ontario. I came across him because he wrote a decision, a Marat decision, child pornography. First time I ever read a judge talk about, vicarious trauma in the courtroom. And I was like, whoa, who's this woke dude? And then we ended up becoming friends, which is fantastic. And then he came on the podcast. And right now this podcast is getting like, pretty wild downloads. But, but he says, you know, in that space, like I'm. He says, we're already coming in a lot of us with post its and stickies stuck to us. So it's not like we acquire them in this space. We're already coming in with them, particularly if we come from practice areas where trauma has traveled really like everywhere. Right? And he says, so we have to think about how we can turn down the tap. Like the free frequency of the trauma. The episode is called small doses, high frequency. he's like, how do we turn down the tap? Because he's like, I'm not naive to suggest that there's never going to be trauma in that space, but how can we dial down the tap so there's less of it? It was really quite profound to listen to his vulnerability about how in that Marat case, he noticed, he didn't notice right away from where he was sitting, but later that, the court clerk was crying as the crown prosecutor was reading in the facts. And he says, we didn't even get to the point of witnessing any. Like, you didn't watch videos yet, we didn't hear audio. And he's like. And I felt kind of helpless, like, how can I help this person? I don't know what's happening for them. And he says, I just feel really ill equipped. And he says, our profession is so behind other professions in terms of not getting, you know, the right education on emotional intelligence, on how to manage trauma, and particularly how to manage trauma, personal trauma. When your personal trauma collides with the traumas of others, that can be a disaster. Like, that's where we have high addiction, high suicide, high, all kinds of things, right? And, so he and I talked a little bit about, like, the intentional debrief, right? Let's be intentional when we go to share with people. And because judges are so isolated and somewhat fearful about disclosing any mental health impacts that they have, they're safe with each other, right? So they could go and. And they need to. I said they need to find, like, these peer support teams that they rotate amongst. And I think all lawyers need to. To do that. I think we need people who are point people who can take some of what we've been through. And if. If not that, for all the people in the big fancy firms, I really think there should be, like, a mental health person who's just on staff and just the door is always open and you just go in and you talk about what you have to talk about, because they have capacity to hold that and they have tools to help you for the next half time you're triggered or for the next time something's coming up for you. But this is how we develop emotional intelligence in the profession. It has to be intentional, and it has to be done with consent. Back to boundaries. We have to ask people like, I had a hell of a day, or I had a hell of a trial. Oh, my God, it's like my fifth, you know, or my 18th sex. Sex assault in a row. I, just have to talk about. About how I'm feeling because I'm vibrating right now, right? And if we do that, we allow our listener to take a moment and go, okay, do I have capacity to hear this? Or have I just also been in a string of sexual assaults myself? And I can't take anymore. And we have to be okay to hear no, right? I think that we're the best. Women particularly, are the best, like models of no. We need to just get okay with saying no. And the more we say no, the more other people, younger people, those coming up behind us, are going to feel empowered to say no and make it about us. Be a little vulnerable. If we can say, I don't have capacity, like, okay, you want to come and talk to me about, like, this horrible, you know, sex assault trial that you just. Just like, we're part of. I have no capacity right now. And we just have to respect that. And I love that language. I have no capacity. Because I have no capacity isn't about you, right? And I think a lot of us feel rejected when we hear no, like they're denying me, like it's me, right? No, it's never about you if you say I don't have capacity. So, so can you run one more trial? Can you take this file? Can you go up to Fort St. John? I have no capacity, right? And if we just say that, I think that injects a little humanity and understanding or has the potential to. And if somebody doesn't want to understand, like capacity limitations, then that's their problem. And maybe it's on us to educate them. Think about how you can model. No. And remember that statistic that I shared with you, which honestly scares the out of me, that autoimmune diseases are like 80 to 90% experienced by women that, you know, Gabor Mate in the Myth of Normal was talking about how many people have women develop breast cancer, all kinds of cancer answers. And then when you dig a little deeper, there are all these things in their lives that were unsaid. All, ah, all this rage that was never expressed, all this grief that they never released. Why? Because we just want to be accommodating, right? And if accommodating you means, you know, my needs go by the wayside, like, what good is that? So I just invite you the next time, you know, folks show up asking you for more than you have capacity to give, say no, say I don't have the capacity. When you have somebody in your office who, whether it's an assistant or someone else undermining you, go and ask them, are you okay? Right? What's going on for you? And have that conversation. Because who knows, maybe they don't know. And I find that when we are conducting ourselves from a place of like, like a cat in a cage, something is happening for us, right, that we're not even articulating. And sometimes it means take, like somebody needs to say something to acknowledge what's happening. And so that can be you. And I hope it will be you. So remember all of the things I said because I think everyone, every single statement I made is important. but remember like in the context of, you know, I know the name of this talk or the title of the talk is like, you know, how to, how to keep your cool when somebody's pushing back. That's all that self regulation stuff I talked to you about. What is your practice, right? The more self regulated you are, the more likely you are to stay in your window, the less likely anyone around you is ever going to be able to disrupt you, to rattle your cage or to get you to state something that you never wanted to state, but you were just so angry, right? Or you just were past, the point in overturn where you just didn't care. And remember, when it's, you know, a battle between the brain and the body, the body always wins. And I want you to reflect on that piece. So how often do you push aside things that come up in your head and then later, like, your stomach aches or you have a migraine or you're exhausted or you have pain somewhere in your body? I'm starting to learn how to, like, talk to these things. Like, what are you telling me? What is the lesson? What am I holding on to? What needs to go? I think that's how we get to, like, a solid boundary practice. So thank you so much for listening to me.
>> Myrna McCallum : All right, that was the bonus episode. I hope you enjoyed the talk on boundaries. And can I just say, if you're ever feeling like a Smeagol, remember this conversation. Remember, I belong here. If you're a bird, I'm a bird. Right? Remember it. live by it. Let it become your mantra. And women, you know, roll with women who will tell you if you have lipstick on your teeth before you head into a big meeting or head into the courtroom or wherever you're headed, not the women who know it, see it, and say nothing. So be really mindful of who you. Who you chill with, right?
>> Myrna McCallum : Who's your homies, who's in your circle. Be really, really particular about it. And leaders. If you're putting your people on the front line of human and suffering day after day, you need to check on them to see if they're wounded, to see if they're at capacity beyond capacity. And if they are, consider how you can help, because they need help. I really appreciate all of your support, folks. Like I said, if you enjoy this podcast, you want to see it continue. Head over to ko-fi.com the trauma informed lawyer, and leave me a tip. I would appreciate it greatly. Thanks so much. Take care, everyone.
>> Myrna McCallum : I hope you enjoyed this episode. Share it with your friends. Okay, until next time. This talk was recorded on the traditional ancestral and unceded territories of the Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh people.