In this episode, Maria Mitousis, family law lawyer in Winnipeg MB, shares details about the day she received a bomb at her law office which was meant to end her life. On the same day, she was experiencing another loss, her partner, a 30 year Call was about to be disbarred. Maria and I discuss her inspiring survival story and her come-back and how both stories have served as a lesson in self-care, mental health and resilience for lawyers everywhere.
CW: This episode discusses violence and victimization.
🎵 AUDIO/MUSIC CUE🎵
>> Myrna McCallum : I'm Myrna McCallum, Metis Cree lawyer and passionate promoter of Trauma informed layering. Welcome back to the Trauma Informed Lawyer Podcast. As you know, I believe that law schools and bar courses are missing a critical competency requirement in their curriculum. Trauma Informed Lawyering. Becoming a Trauma Informed lawyer will, among other things, challenge you to critically reflect on your personal behaviors, beliefs and biases, call on you to positively transform the way you approach advocacy, guide your practice to avoid doing further harm to others, and ask that you commit to remaining open to learn new and old knowledge you didn't know you needed before beginning your career. Your education starts right here, right now. Transcripts for season two have been generously sponsored by the BC Law Foundation.
🎵 AUDIO/MUSIC CUE🎵
>> Myrna McCallum : Hi Maria. Welcome to the Trauma Informed Lawyer Podcast. I don't think I can really do justice to sharing with our listeners exactly who you are and what your history has been in this legal profession. So why don't you tell us about yourself, Maria?
>> Maria Mitousis: Well, okay, where can I start? I guess I can say that I'm a family lawyer, primarily, I've been practicing for almost 16 years. I started my articles at legal Aid, knew I wanted to do family law. Not sure really why I wanted to do family law. I never, thought that this would be the career for me. Never in a million years, actually. I started my undergrad, studies in art history and classical languages and archaeology and, did grad studies. so family law was never something on my radar. But, in law school, taking family law as a mandatory class at the time, I was really drawn to it. I was really drawn to the, immediacy of it, the realness of it, the fact that the law impacts real people. And I was drawn to the idea of articling, and for a community that I really didn't know much about, based, on my upbringing and providing services. So I kind of went into it not really knowing what to expect. I definitely knew that I didn't want to be a solicitor or do that kind of work, which I find really funny because I terrified of public speaking. The idea of being in court terrified me to no end in any of the projects. We had to do in law school, like any moot m I was, it caused me such anxiety, and yet somehow I knew it's what I wanted to do. So, here I am. Here I am 16 years later, one of two principals of a family law boutique in Winnipeg. Seven, lawyers, women led. And we provide all sorts of, family law services. Everything from mediation to collaborative to litigation.
>> Myrna McCallum : I can totally relate to that. I was terrified of public speaking in law school. Like, terrified. I would rather have someone pull out my fingernails and have me speak out loud.
>> Maria Mitousis: Yeah.
>> Myrna McCallum : And then I became a, crown prosecutor. And if someone had told me in law school, this is what you're gonna do, I would have been like, absolutely not. I had zero interest in criminal law, and of course, I had zero interest in public speaking speaking. So it's interesting the things that draw us in and we kind of find, that we maybe have gifts and skills in areas that we maybe had never, ever considered, but for taking the leap, right?
>> Maria Mitousis: Yeah, that's definitely my experience. it's, you know, what I like about what we do and why I keep doing this is because it's those connections with. With people. you know, lots of, I think young lawyers would say, oh, I'd like to help people. And, you know, I think about that a lot. And, we do a lot more than help people. And that's not our job. That's not the sole function of what we do. It's more than that. but it's an opportunity, right, to connect and navigate. And it's a complex, system. It's complex time. People who are going through really challenging things, I feel, sometimes need a guide. Right. And that's how I see myself and my role at times as a family lawyer, as a guide. and that fits for me.
>> Myrna McCallum : Did you learn about trauma at all in law school? Because I imagine it came to your door on a regular basis when you got into family law practice.
>> Myrna McCallum : I'm thinking back, and I'm stalling because I, you know, I'd like to think that we were prepared for something, and I want to give credit where it's due. What I recall about the kind of training we received was to memo your files, to take notes, to be very careful in the case the client were to complain to the law society. It was more of a, you know, CYA type of, instruction. And certainly in my articles as well, you know, obviously, dealing with the population where there are higher rates of complaints. And family law, first of all, is an area Law, where you'll find more complaints about services being provided than other areas. But, it was very reactive, if I were to describe it. I learned about the concept of vicarious trauma, secondary trauma, only in the context. And it's only recently, Myrna, that I kind of understand now what vicarious trauma really is and what it means to every lawyer who practices, family law and other people law. I, understood only, though, at that time to be, you know, what crown prosecutors experience and judges who are seeing crime scene files and really disturbing images and, you know, child exploitation and those really ugly things. And I thought, well, you know, I don't see those terrible, ugly things. Therefore, you know, what do I have to complain about? Since I was injured, in the summer of 2015, I've spent a lot of time trying to understand.
>> Maria Mitousis: One of the reasons I try to understand is because I came back to family law after being injured for doing what I. Doing my job, for being a family lawyer. And I knew I wanted to come back to family law, but I also couldn't really understand why people were telling me, why would you come back to this? You know, like, this was such a trap, and I was having a hard time reconciling that. And so that's when I started to really think about what. What trauma is and why lawyers aren't happy doing what they're doing or feeling that somehow, in some ways, what happened to me was inevitable in this world that were, other people's worlds that we're kind of delving into.
>> Myrna McCallum : Well, before we get into talking about what you experienced, let me ask you this. So given what you were taught, in law school and maybe what was missing, how was your experience working with clients who showed up with a lot of, maybe emotional distress?
>> Myrna McCallum : You said earlier something about, you know, family law being really emotional. And that's what I hear all. You know, practitioner, I could never do that because it's so emotional and, you know, like, emotion's bad. Right. And that's what's really interesting in a way that we equate emotion with bad. That's. That's problematic. And even what I've heard you talk about during your podcast.
>> Myrna McCallum : And, yeah, I run away from people who cry and get mad.
>> Maria Mitousis: That's right.
>> Myrna McCallum : I've already disclosed it.
>> Maria Mitousis: Yeah, no, I remember you saying that. And, and, and I think that, you know, it's a challenging thing because we all respond to emotion very differently. But I also think that not every client presents emotionally. I mean, I think those are the easy ones.
>> Maria Mitousis: Right.
>> Maria Mitousis: I think that you're really visibly upset about something. So let's just deal with that. Let's, let's, let's talk. Let's. And you know, through your podcasts and your workshops, learning how to allow a person to express and experience what they need to express. But what I worry about are the clients where, they aren't emotional, but they are bearing, significant, be it trauma, anxiety, fear, worries about how this is going to look, what are they going to expect? And it's pretty obvious to say that no two clients are the same when they walk in the door. And so in some respects, the upset clients, the ones who are, experiencing emotional upheaval are the ones where we, as a firm and me and my practice, I know that they need to be able to be in a place of good judgment to do anything, to be able to instruct me. And so it means that we need some mental health supports and professional supports. And that's a conversation I have early on with someone who's in distress. Like, you're not going to be able to instruct me. you're going to have to be coming at this from a place where, you're confident in the decision and you feel empowered when we're going to negotiate. so when people come to me in a heightened state of emotion, first of all, we unpack and figure out what kind of supports they need, whether it's family, friends or professional supports. I worry about the people I think about domestic violence and many of the cases that I've seen, where people have experience domestic violence in their relationships so continuously and chronically that they're so numb to it and they don't complain, they don't even want to address it because it's such a reality for them. I remember a client in particular who, like the facts were atrocious. Atrocious. She went to, obtain a protection order by herself and was denied. You know, reading her transcript, she was just very matter of fact. She wasn't emotional. She was kind of underplaying it and it wasn't convincing. And yet it was such a dangerous situation. We were able then to get her the protection she needed, but it took our advocacy and us to be able to translate her experience to get her the protection she needed. So I worry a lot about the people who are presenting who are experiencing trauma. And through your work, you know, how it's expressed in different places. They can be difficult on certain things, but it could be because there's underlying things. And I'm Finding those are the more challenging cases to, assess and to plan for.
>> Myrna McCallum : You've said some really important things, ah, about recognizing, like, the distress that some folks are going through and ensuring that they have supports in place so that they can navigate a process where, they are really equipped to be able to give instructions and to engage in any negotiation, et cetera. I think that has such broad application to so many areas of law, not just family law. So I love that you identified that. I also love that you identified the piece around those who do not show up with any emotion where they're flat, they're silent, where you would think they'd be blowing up right now, or they would be, exhibiting signs of trauma or grief or distress or fear, and there's just nothing. Because that is the flip side of it. And that tends to indicate that there is a lot going on, like, way more than what meets the eye. And so I love that you raised that, because that is the other piece that we ought to be thinking about as lawyers is. Hm. What is going on here that we're not seeing sort of the kind of responses that we would expect at this point.
>> Maria Mitousis: And I'm ashamed to admit that, I think about you. Not if someone wants to cry, you want to run out of the room. I'm ashamed to think about the times, you know, before I become more educated about trauma, about the number of times that they're able to avoid those conversations with clients because not directly relevant to the issue of child support, say. Right. Not directly relevant to the issue of this. So do we really need to go around, talk about what a bully, what a jerk, what a terrible experience client had in any kind of negotiation with the other side during the marriage, and relying on the fact that, okay, things are different now, she's got me, so we don't have to go there.
>> Maria Mitousis: I am ashamed about not having given the space to people to talk about those things, but not knowing how, not being equipped for it and taking on that trauma too. I think I can be forgiven, as many of us can, because what I've learned and what we see is that if you're not prepared for it, the burdens that you can take on can do way more damage, you know, and then sidestepping that conversation to avoid it because you don't know how to accept it or use it, is not helpful to use loyrant and certainly not helpful to the client.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, that's true. I mean, I like to think when we know better, we do better. I mean, I was the same way before I knew what I was doing, before I became conscious of the ways in which my traumas or triggers or just being uncomfortable in certain scenarios or energies, was interfering with my ability to connect with people and really serve them in a good way. I would just walk out, I would just, I would end interviews, I would. Because I was uncomfortable. But once I learned, okay, wait a second, I need to stop getting in my own way, find out some coping mechanisms and get real about why I'm triggered, what's triggering me and how do I ride that out so that I don't walk out on this client or this witness when they need me to actually just be present and witness whatever it is that I'm witnessing and just get out of my own way. So I'm hoping, I'm hopeful that this part podcast is doing some of that, helping folks recognize the ways in which they get in their own way and then learning new techniques to overcome that so that they can serve people in a way that doesn't either feel like betrayal or feel triggering or retraumatizing. And we could get into a whole conversation about that. But we only have so much time and I want to talk to you about so many other things, including you had a big life changing event happen to you, by virtue of your work.
>> Maria Mitousis: Certainly a day in Winnipeg that a lot of people remember just because of the way that what happened happened and the way the city stood still for a while because of the danger. I unknowingly detonated a bomb. It was in a voice recording recorder, like a dictator, in my office, actually in the space this, the space that I'm in. And you know, for those who don't, who are listening, don't know what happened to me. I detonated a bomb. And it was the man who did it was convicted in, 2018, I believe, of attempted murder. I think it was three or four charges myself, his ex wife, who was my client and his own lawyer, who was acting from. He had sent bombs to my office, to his ex wife and to his former lawyer's office. And it was over the July long weekend and I was the only one dedicated lawyer that I am who actually showed up their office that day and I opened my mail and as a result, those other packages that had bombs in them were intercepted by the police and nobody else was hurt. so I've talked to lawyers about my recovery, and facing adversity. And when I was first approached by a group of lawyers who wanted me to talk about this, about coming back to work. It was on the topic of facing adversity and, and being resilient. a lot of people have commented that I must possess some very extraordinary resilience to have something like that happen to me and want to come back to work in this area of law, which can be fraught on a good day, right, as we said before, but also risky, apparently, and, and higher risk than other areas and back in the same office, in the same space. So when I started preparing to talk about, resilience and how was it that I could come back to work and wanted to come back to work, I knew that the story started a bit earlier, than that for me. And, I was always troubled, Myrna, by people saying things to me like, you know, very, very gracious things, but very praising me for being so strong, for being so resilient, for having this kind of strength that they could never, if this happened to me, I would still be. There's no way I could get out of bed. You know, things like that were predominantly the kinds of things that I heard. And lawyers. I remember one lawyer in particular said to me, gosh, you know, you had a way out of this, you know, like a ticket out of practice. Why would you want to come back? And that really, startled me, and upset me because we always talk about family law being really difficult area to practice in and day to day needy clients, all of that. But it occurred to me that, you know, we got lawyers who are so unhappy with where they are that they view that, you know, that I had kind of like, honorable discharge from the permission for the profession. You know, like, no one would think any worse of you if you decided to like, pack it in. And that really got me thinking about it and, why it is we're still kind of feeling stuck doing what we're doing and feeling like we're trapped.
>> Myrna McCallum : I want to go back to that day, that you detonated that bomb without actually going through all of, like, reliving that trauma, based on an earlier conversation you and I had. That wasn't the only loss that you experienced, experience that day, or life altering, experience that you had that day. Can we talk about the other thing that also happened that day?
>> Maria Mitousis: Yeah. So when, I was asked to talk about my recovery and facing adversity, I knew that I couldn't tell the story of what happened and why I could come back without first of all figuring out, so what makes me different? If I Am different if I believe these people who say, said to me, I couldn't do what you're doing. So what is it that I was doing or what is it about me? I'm very ordinary. I'm really no one quite terrified. Public speaking, as we established already. I'm all these things, and yet, what is bringing me back to do this? and I realized that I had for at least a year and some before I was injured, embarked on a journey of needing to understand what was going on for me in my profession was happening to family lawyers. And it was a result of a real personal experience. I'll describe for you because I have spoken about it and I have permission to share about it. but I worked very, very hard in the year preceding my injuries to address my weaknesses, my fears, my vulnerabilities, to acknowledge that I had probably, lost sight of what I was doing and why I was doing it, why I was burning out. I was overworked. I was focused only on my practice. I was focused only on the files. I was losing sight of some. You know, me as a person.
>> Maria Mitousis: And so when you're taken away from your work, when you're taken away from that, that has occupied a lot of your life and space for a long time, you come head to head with, okay, well, what am I without what I do? Right? so I've been seeing a therapist for, regularly, for the year and a half prior to my injuries. and that singular, decision to see someone and give myself space, to focus on me and gain insights, I think for me is one of the things that prepared me for what happened and how I was able to, survive in a. In a very real way. When I was injured, Myrna, I remember feeling very calm, collected, and measured. It is a crazy thing to say and think about now, but in the moments when it happened, I remember just feeling overwhelmed and kind of like, plunged underwater. The world was spinning, and I knew what happened. I just remember thinking how impossible it was. And yet somehow I was like, okay, take a deep breath. One thing at a time. There's no need to panic. If I panic. And I.
>> Maria Mitousis: And I was going through these very, like, regimented, sort of check self, check ins, you know, Okay, I can see. That's a good thing. It's blurry, but that's okay. I can talk. My tongue's okay. Okay, I could probably talk, you know. I had shrapnel all through my face. I remember thinking I could feel it. And I'M like, okay, that's no good. But it somehow grounded me because I like, okay, this is serious. I need to get help. I need to get out my door. And I was able to not lose my mind, not lose control. And in therapy, I learned a lot about managing pieces of insurmountable problems one piece at a time, right? Meditation, controlling intrusive thoughts, all these things that we all know now to be important. Self care, exercises, particularly when you're dealing with your files, your children, elder care, your colleagues, lawyers on their side. Those are all techniques that help you day to day. But remarkably, remarkably, they help you survive a crisis.
>> Myrna McCallum : that's an interesting thing that you described, Maria, because I've been in a couple motor vehicle accidents, and very serious ones, and one was motorcycle accident, and my brain did that exact same thing. Immediately I was very, very calm and checking in about whether I could get the bike off of me, whether I could move, do I smell gas, like it strange how my brain suddenly kicked into this weird place.
>> Maria Mitousis: And isn't it that the most, empowering thing to think that you can trust yourself to keep it together, you know, and the people who say to me, I would never like, like it seems. And you know, when you. When you hear about things that happen to other people, so, unbelievable, right? And so challenging. But you have the strength, right? And your mind and your body kicks in to protect yourself. And knowing that I kicked in and I was there for me when I needed me, is an extremely important thing that I've learned in terms of anything that I face going forward. anything that causes me anxiety or fear or anything that might not be completely in my control. Feeling that I can trust myself to take care of myself is really quite an important, lesson from it.
>> Myrna McCallum : It's such a powerful thing. Oh, my goodness. And I think it's such an. Powerful and important thing to share with our listeners today because, I know that there are so many times that we go through life and things happen and we start to question whether we can actually take care of ourselves.
>> Maria Mitousis: Right.
>> Myrna McCallum : M. And I think, you know, based on your experience. My experience, the answer is a resounding yes. Because there's a part of you that will kick in and take over and will essentially communicate to you that we've got this and it's going to be okay.
>> Maria Mitousis: I got this. Yeah.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah.
>> Maria Mitousis: so in the. Why started seeing a therapist was a result of me acknowledging that I wasn't okay to take care of myself. That was a year and a half Before. And it was a result of, very. It's almost more difficult in some ways, Myrna, to talk about this part of my story than it is about getting, you know, what happened that day on July 3rd in 2015 when I was injured, it was another bomb. I've described it as the first of two bombs that I've survived in that day that I came to the office. On July 3, 2015 was the day that publicly, it was in the newspaper that morning, that my partner had been, disbarred by the Law Society of Manitoba after 30 year career in law. Ah, partner at his firm, former, president of the mba. And, And I say all these things to emphasize someone who's giving back to his community, who was a leader in the community, who it turns out was struggling in the practice of law for reasons that weren't related to competence, you know, and being a good trialer or not related to the burdens of practice and the burdens of personal trauma and challenges, in one's personal life. And not addressing them, not acknowledging it, having no insight, ah, losing, burning out, no judgment. And that path that it can take one day take a person down tragically.
>> Maria Mitousis: so that morning I actually was golfing with my friends on Friday mornings. We go really early and golf nine holes. And I, They're, they're, they're my, they're my really close, supportive friends. And, and I knew that, I mean the story was going to be out that morning and we talked about it on the golf course and we decided to go for breakfast because they wanted to be there for me. and before they got to the restaurant, I picked up the newspaper that was at the restaurant and I saw the story, I read it. I was like, okay, okay, okay, it's gonna be a tough day, but this is real. And I drove to work and opened my mail and then everything just changed. Right. But, you know, I talk about my partner and I both being two people in recovery when I was injured, because that was the end of the story for him. but the year and a half before that actually was two years now, so the dates sort of get foggy. But, he had been suspended from practice when. And I remember, Myrna, like I remember when it happened. I remember us driving to work and he pulled the car over and he says, I have something to show you. And it was a letter from the Law Society. And it was a. You're.
>> Maria Mitousis: We're having a show. Cause hearing you have to attend and you Know, I think about that day a lot. I think about the months that had gone by of his, you know, struggling with these issues that were going to catch up with him. You know, they always do. And yet he couldn't. Until we were actually physically on the road and getting close to our destination. He still couldn't talk about it with me. Never mind a peer support group for, you know, here we are, seasoned lawyers who send people for therapy and psychological counseling all the time. And yet. And when we talked before about identity, I think for me one of the things that the biggest barrier that we had as lawyers is this ego that we have, that we're being fed as law students and you know, also this idea, this lawyer personality that we actually do very well as lawyers because of our ego and our strong ego. and yet it can be so damaging when it's when you can't ask for help or you don't recognize that you need help or that you just feel that you have to solve it all yourself or that you can figure a way out of it. So anyways, that happened and when that happened, immediately I knew I just couldn't. I mean my practice, I was ready, you know, a busy family lawyer, this is a person going through a crisis. he needed intervention immediately. He was in a really bad place. And I just said, I cannot support myself, support him, support our family, and practice law and be able to discharge my duty to my clients who really, it's none of their, it's not their problem. What I'm going through in my personal life, really, you know, that's not, not what they signed up for. And that started for me, a real awakening to the idea that there's the what is it mental health issues, Myrna? I don't know.
>> Maria Mitousis: is it lawyer wellness issues? Is it lawyer well being issues? Is it about recognizing we are very human and if we don't address our own trauma we carry and bring in with us, you are on a real, you're at real risk, to you know, mess up your clients lives and files and do such damage in my partner's case irreparably, and his. I mean, you don't come back from disbarment and you know, and I know and the lawyers who are listening know that there's nothing more shameful, nothing more. And it feeds right into that like, heart of it. Right? What do law students like fear the most? Right?
>> Maria Mitousis: They'll do something that, you know, they'll get barred Right. And it's. And the gossip, you know, that's the other thing about our profession. my experience is that we're very judgmental of each other. And I think judgment often comes from a place where you have a lot of issues of your own self confidence. But we talk about each other, we gossip about others as a sort of defense mechanism, I think. And this weird, way of, you know, sort of not wanting to avoid the issue, that there are weaknesses and that sometimes we, people we know, can run and can run aground and those are the challenging ones. You know, from what I've seen, and I know that law societies are doing more for lawyer mental health and well being now than they have before, is that it's, you know, not these bad apple criminal type lawyers who are, you know, putting their hands in the cookie jar. It's lawyers who are struggling with their own financial matters, their personal lives, mental health issues, addictions. Those are all, all areas of that are just symptoms of not having integrity, you know, a kind of, holistic integrity, you know, and wholeness.
>> Myrna McCallum : That is a lot to be experiencing in one day. One that's a lifetime of loss and lessons and pain and trauma. Like, that's just. Wow. Yeah.
>> Maria Mitousis: I mean, I didn't know it really. Right. I didn't know it. But if anybody thinks that somehow I was born resilient or that I was some kind of special person who, they're wrong. I've worked very hard. I've had very humbling experiences in therapy and making space for myself and doing the work and gaining the insights about who I am and what my personality is and what works for me, what's not working for me. And I feel I'm a better lawyer now. I think I'm a better person now having gone through all these things in a strange, strange way. And there are many silver linings. certainly my partner, he's healthier now in so many ways, physically, even, you know, emotionally than he was before, than I'd ever seen him before. I didn't even appreciate how burdened he was and I didn't appreciate that he was being so affected by the work he was doing. But you know, you're this person with this profile, self created or not, whatever, you know, you, you get stuck in the place that you are. and if you don't have insight about yourself or you're not challenged about yourself in your life, you, before you know it, the workload doesn't stop. Right. We get so pulled into each. So this is this conversation, too, around boundaries, right? We get kind of pulled into other people's conflicts. And as family lawyers, avoiding your own, like, issues, you can be the knight in shining armor for somebody else, right. And take them on and avoid having to deal with those uncomfortable things that are in our own lives.
>> Maria Mitousis: think about what my. What my partner, what happened to him. I think that. And to anyone who makes decisions that are poor judgments and things that you regret and wish you could do over, I think that we would never define a person on their worst moment. that we know that that's. It's wrong and it's not accurate. Right. But I think similarly that we should never define a person when they're at their best moment too. Right. And I think about people who think that, you know, I just, these people who ask me, you know, you're so resilient, and, And I. And I share the story about our dark moments, you know, about our life, because we. It's too easy to think, oh, here's Maria, who's this, you know, this example of resilience, and a woman who's got her shit together and got through these really challenging times. because I don't want someone to think that I'm. That I can be defined by. Because coming back to work and wanting to get back to my life, much, less would I want anyone to ever think that they could define someone based on their worst day in their life. Right.
>> Myrna McCallum : Totally. I mean, there's so many things I want to talk to you about, like when you told me earlier, like, based on the phone call that we had, I think, last December, and he said that one of the things that you heard when you had decided to come back to practice was folks, some folks saying, why would you do that? You've got your ticket, like your honorable discharge, whatever it is.
>> Maria Mitousis: Yeah.
>> Myrna McCallum : And I was really surprised that that was the response when you made the decision that you were coming back. And I think it goes to so much of how people are maybe unsatisfied or not doing well or struggling in all kinds of ways in this profession, if that's their view, that getting out is kind of the golden ticket that we're all struggling striving for. And I think that if we're. Any listeners are in that space, they maybe need to think about why that is. Why, why, like, when did they become of that view and why might they be of that view and what is possibly going on for them that they are of that view today? Because I'm sure it never Starts out that way. In law school when we're about to become lawyers, there's a lot of excitement around possibility.
>> Maria Mitousis: I think it's easy though. Myrna like to educate us to destigmatize preemptive therapeutic intervention and to talk about the fact that we should understand what boundaries are and transfer them. The fact that we all respond differently to people and that the research shows, now I know this, now I understand this. It took me going through all of this, through hell and back, to understand some really basic facts. That profession is known all along. It's somehow in our ivory tower legal profession. We really don't, acknowledge. But anytime you're dealing with people who, experience trauma, and we have our own traumas, we bring into every conversation and every interaction. There are things that you're teaching people how to do to protect themselves and to be better listeners for the client, but also to ensure that we don't fall to pieces when our shell, our integrity is bumped too many times. Right. that we can maintain that sense of wholeness. and it's not that hard. It just involves having some, maybe some help. sometimes it's peer support, sometimes it's having language and vocabulary. Actually, that for me, one of the things that was very empowering for me was having a vocabulary around these concepts and understand like, oh, that, that's. It's a thing, you know, what I, what I'm feeling and experiencing. It's a thing.
>> Maria Mitousis: Transference and counter. Transference. I know that, it's in your materials from the Golden Eagle Society. But psychologists, therapists, social workers, doctors, this is something they're taught because they're interacting. It's relational work. Why on earth are we putting young lawyers in harm's way? Not knowing their backgrounds? And certainly, like with more diverse backgrounds coming into legal practice too now, I think it's even more fraught because you're putting the person in front of a train. And there's so much that law students have to put up with and experience, that the last thing that I think anyone thinks is that they're going to be psychologically or emotionally damaged by doing this career. And I say it was easy in the sense that it's just education and it's providing resources and access to resources and a language for people to talk about this. And I think by you talking about it, by me talking about this and being vulnerable about it, I want people to know that most lawyers are like me. We can have these conversations and we can speak about these things. Once you Start the conversation.
>> Myrna McCallum : I'm a believer in possibility and I think that where we create space for these conversations, like the possibilities now become limitless. And I mean, there's so many things I want to ask you about, Maria, like, but we only have so much time for this podcast episode. I, mean, like some of the things that come to mind were, were like all of the training and adaptive coping mechanisms and processes that you had to put in place to come back to the practice. Not only coming back to the practice, after having lost one of your hands through this, act of violence, but also coming back to the practice without your partner being part of the profession. There's so much that you had to do to prepare yourself for your come back, your return. And I won't call it bounce back. Some people will call it that. I won't call it resilience, because some people are opposed to that. But I know that any kind of comeback or return requires a lot of work and a lot of learning, new adaptive strategies to, to think about how you're going to be in a space that is a new normal for you. And in that context, I want to chat a little bit about how did you, how did you prepare yourself for your return? And how did you feel when folks were beginning to identify you now as, you know, the lawyer who was blown up or the lawyer who had this experience. Right. But now that this huge traumatic event has become now part of your identity, it's interesting.
>> Maria Mitousis: One of my, friends, one of the decisions I had to make early was whether or not to talk about my experience. Right. And whether to share the story of my comeback with others. Knowing that now you all know more about the recovery and return to work work than I think people might have understood at first. and I know that some people struggle with, you know, the idea of being re. Traumatized by these things and experiencing it. And I didn't find that that was, true for me. I think it's because again, I was very protective of myself and had professional supports. And in the time that I was, I was away from work about a year and then year and about six months afterwards, starting back part time, I found that when I was starting to speak about this and write these things down and each time that I would come back to tell the story, I found it hugely like a milestone for me. It was almost. I don't journal, but it was a way of journaling my progress. And some way part of my m. Coming back and recovering has been to Take on this role of advocating for mental health awareness within the legal profession, using myself as an example of someone who was able to survive and hopefully thrive from what might be like the most extraordinary and unlikely event. Right. That one could. But I talk about oftentimes with lawyers, is that it's not foreseeable that we are all going to experience something that you talk about. Big T, small T, traumas, Myrna, but loss, of a loved one, end of a relationship, end of a career, elder care, personal illness. Like these are things that we know are likely going to happen to us or to someone we know. And so we have to put these,
>> Maria Mitousis: It's not necessarily as extraordinary as what happened to me in this kind of moment, but it has the same effect, the traumatizing effect on us. So I try to make the case for people to care more about themselves and be more compassionate with themselves and be kinder to themselves. I think your question was about, though, my identity coming back as a person has had this happen to them. And, you know, people have asked me, well, you know, do I feel like I'm treated differently or people treat me differently? I don't know. I know I treat myself differently. Absolutely. I am far kinder to myself, far less judgmental sometimes. It's amazing that some of these limits that I have now have actually provided me a lot of freedom. And that's just unfortunately something I probably could have worked on with some therapy before hand and didn't need this quite this unfortunate experience to have, you know, given me the insight. But, I hear a lot of the things that make lawyers anxious and cause them a lot of fretting and a lot of unhappiness. And I wish people could see that. You know, with a little bit of work and insight that. And planning, I mean, and attention to yourself, you know, carving out some time for yourself. I think people, you know, we talk about space. People don't give themselves space.
>> Maria Mitousis: Just go from one thing to another thing, from one family member to another. Commitment to volunteer commitments, to work commitments. And they never give space to themselves and their phones. You get sucked into your. Your phones as a distraction. Being truly alone is a very challenging thing to do. But we're gonna have to be alone. Like I was alone in those moments before, you know, the ambulance came. And I knew, there was a moment where I realized I was bleeding. And it occurred to me like it was. I was bleeding from my neck and I was, I told you I felt I had got it Right. And I remember thinking, there's a chance that I might bleed to death. And it dawned on me at that moment that this might be the last moment. And I realized how alone I was. And I don't mean alone in a terrible, scary way, but I felt alone. And I don't know if I was ready. I can't remember. I just remember understanding that it's important now to feel. To know what being alone is and to feel comfortable in. Of being alone. And, for me, I think, you know, this overburdened people time and fear. You know, it's frightening to be alone through thoughts and to have to make decisions about your life and so on, so forth. And I think that's why people avoid it, to be honest.
>> Maria Mitousis: And it's come up a lot in Covid, actually. You know, we've had some webinars and meetings with, you know, especially women lawyers. And some people are feeling like, thank God I've got all this time, all of a sudden, you know, all these meetings got canceled. And finally I've got time. And some people who feel like they don't know who they are because without those things, they've got no identity.
>> Myrna McCallum : Right.
>> Maria Mitousis: So I think we got to get better at creating some space, because you're not the lawyer if you're not mom, if you're not sister or Grandma. you got to know who you are. And if you're. If you don't know who you are, you're going to get drawn into places where you're going to lose your boundaries with others, and you don't have boundaries because you don't need to protect anything. I don't know, Myrna I'm sorry. Like, I could probably. Well, then going back to that whole piece about, like, who you are, identity. How do you feel about being known, you know, as a lawyer who was blown up? Like, is that a part of your identity that you have now adopted? Is it true, like, retrigger retriggering or re traumatizing? Is it a piece that you'd like to have left somewhere else in the past, or do you feel neutral about it?
>> Maria Mitousis: I feel neutral about it. I'm not sure why. I probably have to work on that and try to kind of sort that out a bit more. I'm not sure why. I remember one of my friends telling me, you know, when I started making the decision to talk about this and to do advocacy, within the profession and talk about these things that you and I are talking about, she's like, you have to Be careful. You're not Malala, right? Or she called this malalaying, you know, and that this need feeling, this need to have to fix things and tell people and to be some kind of spokesperson for it. And I think about that a lot. And, you know, saying yes to doing, talks about this and putting it all out there and trying to be that person, perhaps that might kind of shake someone up, to wake up and. And to maybe be a role model. And I find that burdensome sometimes, actually, a lot of times. And I feel disappointed, too, because I know that in many ways I'm healthier now than I was before. And I just sometimes wish that my colleagues could see how much they could benefit from acknowledging some certain difficult things. I don't mind.
>> Maria Mitousis: I think, Myrna, to answer your question about being identified as that, because it does give me an opportunity, I think, to connect with people or if they want to hear, they're intrigued by it, to, I guess, for me to push my agenda, which is. No, no, you don't just bounce back from something like this. You need to get some therapy. You got to get help, you know, and you got to do it early, and you got to work on it. That's my real agenda, is to tell lawyers they have to be vulnerable and that they should be honest with themselves. And if they think that they can take care of other people's problems and avoid their own, then they're mistaken.
>> Myrna McCallum : I love that you're using this label or this new identity as a means to, like, educate and to build awareness and to make space for these conversations that lawyers usually don't make space for, but that they need to make space for. Let me ask you this question before we run out of time today, because I want to really. I'm curious about what this experience was for you when this individual had sent, the bomb to your office, as well as your client and his former lawyer he eventually had been charged with. He had. Was it three charges of attempted murder, and he was tried through his prosecution. You had the opportunity to show up and, present your victim impact statement. I think that that is a very. As a former Crown, I know exactly what it takes for people to be able to do that work, to put words to their experience. But I think as lawyers, we. We probably never put ourselves in that position and think about what that would be like. So as a lawyer having to experience that, what was that experience like for you?
>> Maria Mitousis: I, have to say that I felt compelled to do it. I felt that. I feel very strongly that victims and survivors of violence have a right to be heard. You know, and here I am, an unlikely person, found myself in a place where I am a survivor and a victim. I don't know can use those words. I don't. Those words are interchangeable sometimes, but I still don't, mind viewing it as being a victim as well. And I think I'm both. but, I felt compelled to do it because I believe in the process, and I believe in that the court should hear from everyone who didn't have opportunities before. So it was important for me to do it. I also respect the fact that the others chose not to. I thought it might be of assistance to the court. And I also understood that there was a lot of public interest in me and what happened to me and support Myrna. I mean, it was extraordinary the amount of support that I had received, received from everyone in the community, from lawyers across the country. and I knew in a way that.
>> Maria Mitousis: That I, didn't have an opportunity to be heard throughout the process. I was, you know, I gave my evidence when I had to, and I was cross examined when I had to be, but very artificial. You know, it's a very interesting thing to be a lawyer sitting in a witness box. I. I felt out of place, like I understood my role, but it just was very surreal to me and humbling and an experience I'll never forget of what it feels like to be part of a process that you have no control over. And even when you're being asked questions on direct, it's still not a process you have control over. You know, it's not really your story. It's still being kind of, extracted from you in a way. I just remember that that part of it is very different than what I expected it to be. So then when I chanced to do the victim MTACs, all which to say, I thought it was important because I didn't get to be heard. On the other hand, I hated it. I hated doing it. I hated writing it. I hated that I had to describe my pain. I had to describe how it felt, what it felt I saw in my family, what my wounds were like, because there's actually a form and it kind of gives you headings, you know, emotional impact, physical impact, you know. And so I approached it very clinically. And I looked at the form and I said, okay, what can I say about these topics? I hated that he had to hear it and that I had to say it in front of the person who perpetrated these harms on me and others.
>> Maria Mitousis: And it was, difficult. It was difficult because I didn't want to give him that satisfaction of knowing my pain. Right. However, I have to say to you, and I said it in the courtroom, I actually don't think about him very much at all. I can forget about it. I knew as a process, like, I mean, it comes up from time to time, but I feel that I. I, have had the supports I needed to move through what had happened and to put that person. He's like a footnote in my life, you know, And I wanted him to know that he would be a footnote in my life and that I wouldn't be affected beyond what I described in my victim's impact statement. One thing that I identified to Myrna, and this is long before I had the vocabulary about, you know, being trauma informed, was one of the difficult things that I hadn't expected about being a victim was how my partner and my friends and my family experienced what happened and how, you know, I'm in control of my own pain, my own experience. But the anger, the hurt, the pain that others go through and the way they describe their trauma to me is something that's a burden that I had to carry, carrying. I felt guilty about, in many ways. The women at my office, like, who comes to work thinking that some, you know, your coworker is going to get blown up and you're going to be sitting there in the aftermath, having seen that and witnessed that and the things that I didn't have to see. And that was something that I talked about in my victim impact statement because it's bad enough being a victim, but to have to carry the other. All the rest of it with you is something I thought the court should know about too. That there's more than one victim. When something like this happens, it's really
>> Myrna McCallum : powerful because I've heard the same thing stated, time and time again, particularly when I've talked to victims of sexual violence where there were witnesses to the act of like. Of sexual violence, and how sometimes it was the witnesses who. Who could not get past the trauma of what they witnessed. and it was the victim who seemed to be able to recover a lot more quickly. and so I think that that is so important, and I think I might have to have you back again, Rita, to talk about what's a better way to, like, engage victims in, sharing their experience. Because I don't like this client clinical way, and I'm familiar with that form and the topics and it's just so inhumane in so many. And have. There's so many things about the process I don't like.
>> Maria Mitousis: I struggled with it too, in the sense that it's careful what you wish for. You know, you want a victim to have a voice, but then that there's such a risk of more harm to be done when you are. It's a really tough one, I think. And I never really paid attention to it because, you know, it's not really the kind of work I was doing until I started to write my own victim impact statement. Gosh, if I'm struggling with this and I have the supports and I'm privileged and I have psychologists and therapists and a family that's supporting me, and I have friends who are supporting me, the community behind me, and I'm struggling. I can't, I was heartsick thinking about how many victims who have nothing and no one and no ability to be supported, you know, are being faced with something like this.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, totally. And I also think about all of those victims who don't even understand really like the inner workings of the court system or the justice system or see themselves as having a role in that system because of, historical experiences or a lack of understanding. Yeah, there's so many things that I have issues with and maybe one by one I'll be able to start addressing those things and saying, here's a better way and here's something we need to know. And yeah, you're right. Like the whole, victim impact statement process can really, serve to, re. Victimize people in so many ways. And who is it for really? who is that process for? Yeah.
>> Myrna McCallum : Anyway, I have lots of thoughts, but I want to talk, I want to close our conversation talking about like, how you and I met. I came in to do a short little presentation for. I think it was the Manitoba Law Society and there were members of the Manitoba Bar. After I did this little thing, me and my grandson river, trauma Informed lawyering. You called me, we had this awesome conversation and now, you know, you've had me come back to do a similar presentation for the Young Lawyers section. It got me thinking about how involved and active I guess you must have become in certain conversations. And let's talk about the work you're doing around that with lawyers, and younger lawyers, lawyers. And why.
>> Maria Mitousis: Part of it, I think I covered before, you know, this agenda that I have because I realized that the answer to the question that everybody wants is, you know, how did you come back and how did you why are you so resilient? Right. And, the resilience, in my view, comes from being healthy and, healthy in a very broad context. And it really aligns with a lot of the work that we're seeing in, well, being, awareness and education. You know, the idea of being spiritually, physically, emotionally and intellectually healthy, as a person and as a lawyer. Right. I think that shared experience is something that resonates with people. And I believe that sharing experiences is a way of connecting and building relationships. And I heard lots of people say that the practice of law has changed so much. Where more senior lawyers will say, you know, we had a lot more, connection with each other, we had more mentorship. No one was at it alone. Right. And I think the practice has changed for many reasons. People, are feeling and kind, very alone. Right. In practice. And so I think that by sharing experience and building connections and relationships, I think that's number one where we can try to build, a healthier legal profession, in the community. It's so funny, Myrna. I'm always constantly struggling how we as lawyers are the ones who are up to speed on the latest research and data when you're working on a client's case, and certainly in a wrongful dismissal or any of these kind of workplace issues where people are being harassed or feeling otherwise, facing challenges. And yet we can't look at our own workplaces with the same analysis that we do for our clients. And it just, it boggles my mind. And I, think it's more than just the business case. There is the argument that the model work the way it works because there's money to be had and nobody wants to change things because you tough it out in the front end as a junior and eventually you'll reap the rewards. But we know that it's not a model that is, open or accessible to most people, especially women and other people of diverse backgrounds. So it's. It's going to change and it's going to have to change. And I think waiting for that to happen is useless. And I think we have to empower the young lawyers to be able to have these conversations or teach them how to have them or to say these things that need to be said. I love the work that you're doing on trauma. I think it's probably the root of a lot of the issues around lawyer mental health, problems. I want people to find the joy of being a lawyer again. What it is that drew you to law school and why you know, that people maybe can have it all. I don't know. Maybe too optimistic, Myrna, But I don't.
>> Myrna McCallum : I don't think so. I think that's awesome because, as I said to you earlier, I believe in possibilities and I believe in having it all. And, you know, if you were to have a conversation with young lawyers about, you know, young. Your hopes for the future of this profession and thinking, of course, of your partner's experience and how, I'm sure in retrospect, a lot of that could have been identified and prevented.
>> Maria Mitousis: 100%. 100%. The taboo of, not talking about a colleague who's struggling. You know, the red flags that I saw, that I now know were red flags. And I'm not blaming only myself. I mean, there are so many others. You know, we talk about how you talk about these things. One topic that came up when we did a, with the bar association is a, We did a CPD on suicide prevention and how not to be a bystander. Right. I mean, that's a very challenging, difficult topic for a lot of us. But we all know that the legal profession, we're the highest risk, for lawyers to die. I see suicide than any other profession. And, not being a bystander and not. But not being equipped with the language and the understanding of this emotional first aid, that we should have to speak to our colleagues when we are seeing flags, I think applying some of that, to just day to day, checking in with our colleagues and people we work with within our firms. I think there's a responsibility of, within the firms to. And legal organizations. And I'm just going to limit it to firms, but to ensure that, you know, mental health is not just doing a lunchtime yoga class, you know, or doing a birthday party or something for someone like that. We are looking at it as a competence issue, Myrna. And that's a lot of your work is highlighting that. And I believe that to be a competent lawyer, you have to be a healthy lawyer. And it may be recognizing the way trauma acts on you and your clients, but it's also, I think, even broader than that as the work is demanding, right? It is demanding, and it takes up so much of us, often will overtake us. And I think that's where people start to find themselves at risk. Part of it, I think, is having peer support and a peer group. And that's where I think peer support is more preventative, though, than I think it is a response to people who are potentially moving into areas where they're engaging in riskier behaviors. I think once you get past a certain point you need intervention from professionals. But I think a peer support is a good place to start. Start destigmatizing, normalizing, you know, conversations. Putting this type of work that you're doing in a curriculum early on is necessary. I think it's necessary to educate though the leaders of organizations. What's the point of having you know, a lunchtime yoga class or a wellness room if the leaders aren't going to do it or it's probably more damaging actually in hindsight. Excellent. So you'd asked me about what I'm doing and so part of it is conversations, whether it's on a small level, doing some CPD's with the MBA the wellness liaison with the M. CBA wellness subcommittee. I'm also on a committee with the Law Study Manitoba Right now the president has ah, struck a special committee to look at lawyer well being and that's where I want to go. I think though, whenever you want to affect some change, we can talk and we can have conversations on this level as much as we want with like minded people who join my CPD that I organize right. But I think it's incumbent on our regulators, our educators, the ones who are like the law schools, even the court and that's maybe something we can come back to if we have some time. But the court, law school and the law societies, let's just say the bar association, we're sold. Like we're doing this work on the bar level. We are recognizing that our, we want to be healthier, happier lawyers.
>> Maria Mitousis: But I think that our regulators need to do more to recognize these competency issues and provide the supports and destigmatize both in like the you know, complaints and discipline process. But doing preemptive work with organizations, with lawyers and with the public. You know, I understand and I accept that the mandate of our law societies are to protect the public. But the public's well served with a healthy, healthy, healthy membership of lawyers who can practice in a way that's safe. And so by supporting lawyers are going to protect the public. And I really, I think more has to be done there because the law society has the power to create change amongst organizations that might be slow to voluntarily do those things themselves. So that's why I'm thrilled that you're going to be doing work with the law society to do some training. I'm thrilled that they are Looking to put lawyer. Well, being on the agenda with this committee. I do think though that like minded people like us can be supportive and do the peer work that needs to be done. But systematically and institutionally, there are ways that will work much quicker and better than I think we, I mean I can do, by being, you know, the mba, Wellness rep. I'm just a person, right? I'm not an expert.
>> Maria Mitousis: I just know from my own experience and from the education I've received and the awareness that I've had that all this is here for us to access and the data is there and the other, you know, work is being done all over the place, not just, you know, in Canada, on these issues.
>> Myrna McCallum : I'm no expert either. I just, I just share what I've learned, and the mistakes that I made that I've learned from. I just share it through the podcast and other means in the hopes that it's going to help someone think about how they engage, how they avoid, how they cope, how they adapt, how they overcome and and how we need to make space for more of these conversations.
>> Maria Mitousis: And I think what you said about making mistakes is huge. I think that we have to start talking about making mistakes because I think that's the greatest fear that every student leaves, you know, who gets called to the bar once, getting out into the workplace and to practice. What if I make a mistake? They're terrified of making a mistake and already traumatized by making a mistake without having made a mistake. And they're going to make mistakes. Right? And we are human and we make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. And the standard that we hold ourselves to and how we can, how we view ourselves, is something that we do have to have more conversations around.
>> Myrna McCallum : There's not enough representation of the reality of who we are as players in this profession. We have the image, but we don't have enough real stories. And it's the real stories. That's where the magic is. The magic is in the reality.
>> Maria Mitousis: That's right. And everyone has a real story. Everybody I meet in my work, my colleagues, anyone I've gotten to know, there's real stories there. That it's shocking to me that we can have these personal relationships and yet there's still this myth of other people who I don't. And it starts in law school too. You know, it starts with the idea that you're looking around and you're feeling like an imposter and that everybody knows more than you do. And then you Know, we see everybody's grades going like, oh, well, everybody's as dumb as I am. Right.
>> Maria Mitousis: Like, yet somehow you still think you're the dumbest in the class, even though you know that everyone's the same place. Right. So it's just the tricks that we play, on ourselves to perpetuate our own myths about why we're not good enough. Right.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah. What are the stories that we tell ourselves? Right.
>> Myrna McCallum : It's really. It's such a powerful. It's such a powerful question we all need to be asking ourselves. And I just. I want to conclude our conversation today by just saying, you know, thank you for sharing and stories with me, but also, like, thank you for calling me that day. That kicked us all off, because I loved how in that 20 minute conversation we had, you shared with me a real story. And honestly, I really have no time for any stories that aren't deeply real and meaningful. And you just. There was no messing around about, like, oh, let's talk about this in these, like, theoretical terms. It was like, this is what happened. Let's talk about this for a second, and let's talk about trauma in the profession. And I was like, these are the conversations I want to have because this is the reality, and this is the thing that tends to drive people out of the profession, or drive people further into isolation. And so thank you for being you and for sharing this story of, you know, coming through something really, really, really hard and coming back into the profession with a renewed sense of, mission or purpose and doing all the work that you're doing. Thank you. thank you and thank you for gathering these stories. Being the gatherer of people's stories and traumas is not easy. And, we are heard, people like me are heard through the work of people like you. So thank you for your tireless work to have this platform for these stories to be heard.
>> Myrna McCallum : That's my show for today, folks. Take care of yourselves. This episode was recorded on the traditional ancestral unceded territories of the, Squamish people. This larger territory is shared between the Squamish, Tsleil Waututh and Musqueam people