In this heartfelt conversation, Myrna is joined by her best friend Shain Jackson to talk about love, life lessons, healing, art, and spirit. Together, they reflect on how relationships and lived experience shape who we become, and how art and storytelling can be powerful pathways to healing. Shain shares the vision behind his Story Booth Project, an initiative to create recording spaces for Indigenous people to preserve stories and teachings, as well as his work through Spirit Works and the nonprofit Golden Eagle Rising. At its core, this episode is a warm and honest reflection on love as a teacher, creativity as medicine, and the stories that guide us forward. cw: this episode briefly and broadly mentions sexual assault, self harm, suicidal ideation and child abuse.
In this intimate and wide-ranging conversation, Myrna sits down with her best friend Shain Jackson for a soulful exploration of love, art, healing, spirituality, and relationship—with all the honesty, laughter, and tenderness that only a lifelong friendship allows.
Together, they reflect on how love shapes who we become, how trauma informs our relationships, and how learning to listen—to ourselves, to spirit, and to one another—is an ongoing practice. This episode weaves personal stories with deeper teachings about healing, creativity, and the role of art as a living, breathing expression of spiritual connection.
Shain shares the vision behind his Story Booth Project, an initiative dedicated to creating physical recording spaces where Indigenous people can safely share and preserve their stories, teachings, and lived experiences for future generations. Rooted in respect, sovereignty, and cultural continuity, the project is both an act of preservation and a form of resistance.
The conversation also touches on Shain’s entrepreneurial and community-building work through Spirit Works, as well as his nonprofit Golden Eagle Rising, which centers Indigenous resurgence, creativity, and community care.
At its heart, this episode is about love as a teacher—love in friendship, love in art, love in healing, and love as a spiritual force that guides us home to ourselves.
This is a conversation for anyone navigating growth, grief, creativity, relationships, and the sacred work of becoming.
To see Shain's work: www.spiritworks.ca and www.goldeneaglerising.org
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>>Myrna McCallum: Hi, folks. Can you believe that we are at season four of the Trauma Informed Lawyer podcast? I certainly cannot believe it and I appreciate all of you for sticking with me through all of it and the delays and dropping episodes. I promise this season I'm going to be giving you a lot of content and on a more regular, predictable basis. I want to say that since I started this podcast, I don't know how long ago now, years ago, my evolution and my education has certainly, like, increased least. And I believe that becoming trauma informed in any respect is just the baseline, the bare minimum that we can do. The work for us is to become trauma responsive, culturally responsive, to become just and equitable, and to center humanity and integrity in all of the work that we do. In the spirit of that, the episodes, the conversations that are coming forward are intended to reflect that. And as I have come to learn, and probably you, the listener on understand, this conversation isn't just for lawyers and judges and law enforcement, like I, my initial intended audience. It has, like, spanned the globe, from lawyers to leaders to advocates, activists, practitioners, physicians, politicians. So many people listen to this content. Why? Because we are all dealing with human beings and all human beings are experiencing some degree of suffering, including ourselves. And so the work for us is to recognize that in each other, adapt and adjust accordingly so we do no further harm.
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>> Shain Jackson: Here we are, Myrna. I know.
>> Myrna McCallum : Here we are, Shain We've been, like, wanting to do this for a really long time, and it's happening. So we're recording both the podcast for my podcast, and we're sitting in your story booth.
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah. Do you, do you mind if I open up on our story booth a little bit and then we'll move into the podcast bit?
>> Myrna McCallum : Go ahead, Fire away.
>> Shain Jackson: This is a unique sort of circumstances because I, I listen to Myrna's podcasts all the time, and I love how you, you know, frame everything, introduce everything. The questions you ask are amazing, and I'm trying to emulate some of that when I, when I do story booth sessions because it brings out really the. The best in everybody. So anyways, this. This we are recording visually as well on the story booth. So right now I'm welcoming Myrna McCallum. I'm gonna let her introduce herself in a minute. I'm just gonna, say a few things because I'm just so deeply honored, you know, first of all, that we've been really close friends for a really long time and that you're finally in the Story booth, and I've got you in our clutches. And, you know, I'm. I'm just so looking forward to what comes out of this. you know, the story booth was designed to impart, like, lots of really amazing teachings, and, you know, and I have a feeling this is going to be a, good one. So I'm just going to open it up like that and let you open it up like. This was a podcast for you.
>> Myrna McCallum : Let me get my podcast voice on. no, just kidding. Well, it's been a long time coming. You and I have been wanting to have a recorded conversation of sorts for years. We've been talking about it, and so to do it in this way, I think, is really good, even though I was resistant this morning over breakfast, because, as Shain knows, I have a really hard time, sometimes, like, being seen, Dean, and being, like, recorded. And, we're in his story booth, which is really beautiful. but you need some, like, glam lighting in here. anyways, I digress, but, like, there's a screen in front of us where we could see ourselves and each other. And, and my phone is right in front of us, and it's a really tiny space, so it's really intimate. And. Yeah. Which is perfect, I think, for the conversation we're gonna have today, which is, I think, going to be intimate, vulnerable, courageous, a real honest. So I love that I can, capture this both on my podcast and that Shain can capture this on his story booth. So. And people who've listened to my podcast for a long time know who you are, because we're a little bit about you, because I've always been talked about my bestie Shain And so we're gonna learn a lot more today about who my bestie Shain really is.
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah. And hopefully vice versa. So we laid this out in a way where, Myrna approached me, and you said, you know, I want to ask a few questions. Why don't we ask each other, like, three basic questions, and then we'll just converse about them? So I'm, gonna let you take that away. And, you know, do you want to start with a question, or do you want me to start with one of mine?
>> Myrna McCallum : How about we start with, like, a, little introduction about, like, how would you describe yourself? And then I'll answer the same question for people who maybe need a little context before we go into this conversation. So, Shain if you were just introducing yourself or just describing yourself to someone who's never met you or heard about you, what would you Say, do
>> Shain Jackson: my, boilerplate, you know, my name is Shain Jackson. I carry the name Niniwum which is a name given to me by, a very esteemed group of elders from my community. and it means to advise, to help or to serve, which I'm super duper proud of. And we can talk a little bit more about that a little bit later. But I'm from the Shishálh First Nation. I have a business called spiritworks and I have charitable arm, which is our non profit arm, which we do lots of really amazing work including the collaboration for this story booth project, which again is, it's designed to, to you know, get a lot of teachings out there and, and collect stories and, and wisdom and knowledge from our elders and, and people who carry a lot of knowledge and stuff like that. So, you know, that's Golden Eagle Rising Society, of which Myrna here is one of our esteemed board members. yeah, so we do lots of good work. I, mean, I could talk for hours about the work that we do, but generally I work as an artist. you know, I'm constantly trying to understand, you know, it's so funny. I've been doing it for so long, but I still feel I'm in my infancy about understanding Coast Salish artwork. And there's so many people that I have to thank for giving me, so much, essentially to think on all these years. because artwork is how we codify our history, our world view, our culture and our laws. So I mean we could speak for hours about any of that. But that's kind of where I'm, at right now. And you know, obviously we'll dig into a little bit more.
>> Myrna McCallum : Awesome. All right, well, and I'm Myrna. I am, Metis, by blood. My roots are with the Cree people. I'm from Green Lake, which is a Metis village in Northern Saskatchewan Treaty 6 territory. I am however, also now as of 2011, registered on Waterhen Lake First Nation, which is the neighboring reserve, that my kôhkom came from Agnes McCallum. My grandfather Joe comes from Green Lake and as did his parents and their parents. And I'm, I guess a lawyer. I've been a lawyer for like 20 years now or something. Time flies. I'm, a grandmother and I, I'm a podcaster. I guess I don't know what I am, but, I'm all kinds of things. But I guess like that would just sum me up right now. Awesome. okay, so let's have this conversation I didn't put together, Shain like actual questions, but you and I discussed topics that we want to discuss. Why don't we just kind of start chronologically if that's okay. not like your life met when you met me, but I mean when you and I met. We met in law school. and truth be told, I didn't like you very much when we met each other. I know, I know. And it was because like, I had, I was pretty ragey. I had a lot of anger in me. I was just coming from Saskatchewan, which was for me a really hostile environment. Really hard to be open hearted, soft hearted in an environment where racism, was in your face every day. And also where, you know, kind of like a harsh childhood really taught you to hate yourself. And so when I met you, like two things really irked me about you. Well, a few things. One, you were very charismatic and everyone liked you. I didn't like that at all. you also had pretty privilege. You were a good looking guy. And And that just like contributed to like your likability. I didn't like that at all. And probably the biggest thing was how white passing you were. And I was like, what the does this guy know about being indigenous? Being native, Experiencing a native life in this country and in this law school? He looks like a white guy is. Is immediately what I thought. And I was like, I don't want to know him. I'm not interested. I don't, I don't. I've decided I don't like him. And. But that was where my mindset was all those many, many, many years ago. And it was easy for I think you and I to kind of steer clear of each other or me to steer clear of you. Until, I came to Mandel Pender where you were already working and I was articling. I got an articling gig there. And then they paired you and I up and like cue the massive eyeballs I was feeling at the time when they're like, oh, we're gonna like pair you up with Shain and Roshan. And I was like, great. Shain Jackson. Yes. That guy. And that is how our beautiful friendship began.
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah.
>> Myrna McCallum : Wow.
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah, I was, Yeah, you didn't make mince words or, or have any bones about it. I just remember I was part of the Indigenous Law Students association. And yeah, I mean, coming to, to UBC law. And I have to qualify, you know, the fact like I, I am privileged. I get it. I'm totally privileged. Not because of my upbringing certainly as you know, and not because of, you know, experiences I've had. but definitely the pigment of my skin has given me privilege and I, I acknowledge that and I've seen it in a lot of things I do. And we'll talk a little bit more about, you know, what you do with privilege when you have it. But generally, yeah, no, I've run into people that were very angry before. The, the thing that I remember about you, yeah, definitely some of the things that came out of your mouth were just like, holy smokes, what did I. What do I do to her? but I also acknowledge, and I remember, you had this energy coming out of you that was really something. I mean you could see it back then and I definitely, definitely definitively saw it. So I always kept an eye on you. you know, throw. Because we would bump into each other, you know, at events. He worked at the union for a bit and you know, I worked with the uni to B.C. and he's quite a bit in different capacities when I was practicing law, mandelpinder and stuff. So I'd bump into you from time to time and you always like, you know, I could tell this sort of reserved resentment still. And I'm just like, okay, that's fine. But I never felt like, you know, I've always made an effort, I've tried to make an effort not to reciprocate, you know that and I see where it comes from. you had an amazing energy around you all the time and that was quite noted. So when you were plunked right outside my office door when you were articling, that was just like, to me, that was kind of meant to be because we managed to, you know, I got to, I got to experience Myrna on a different level and obviously you got to know me a bit better and understood that, you know, maybe, yeah, my skin was like, like may maybe. Yeah, I wasn't quite as privileged as you thought I was.
>> Myrna McCallum : Anyway, well, I had to like confront like my whole judgmental. I was so judgy and I think, you know, two people came into my life that really had to force me to challenge my judgment around like a white passing. And that was of course you. And then Blueberry, my daughter, who's very white, blue eyed, light brown hair. but yeah, when I got to know you, Shain because I had no choice but to get to know you, I had to work with you. I realized especially when we would go on walks at lunchtime and like without fail, you would always invite me to take a walk and go get something to eat. Tortilla soup.
>> Shain Jackson: Right.
>> Myrna McCallum : And then I started to learn a little bit about you, about your childhood, about your background, about how you were raised, what you saw growing up, what you experienced growing up. And then it was only then that I realized maybe, the color of our skin is very different, but there's a lot of similarities between you and I. We're not that different. And then the rest is history.
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah, no, I think it was really amazing in Mandelpinder. It was, it was quite a. Definitely a meeting of the minds. because I remember just going for walks with you and you know, and, and trying to understand your world view from where you were from. And you know, I was, it was, it was fun. I have to say. It was really fun. I mean it was the, the, you know, the start of a really amazing friendship because, you know, the humor, you know, considering and, and again, we'll dig into a little bit of the, the trauma side of stuff, but the humor you carried was just like, it was, it's very attractive. Like you, you attract things to you, you know, with your, your humor and you know, obviously your intellect. anyways, yeah,
>> Myrna McCallum : I would say that goes both ways because I think if you and I couldn't laugh together, I don't think we would have been. Become the friends that we have become. And especially if we couldn't laugh together about so much of this that we like live through the poverty and the trauma and I mean, we're just talking about it yesterday. Like, have you ever made spaghetti sauce out of ketchup? Like, well, yeah, who hasn't? Right? there's so many things about like is sleeping outside and all this other. And I remember how one time we're on one of our walks and you were just like feeling almost jealous of this dude who was, Remember he was laid out on the street with his arms behind his head and he was totally taking a full on nap right there in Yale town on the sidewalk. And you're like, oh man, I want to be that guy.
>> Shain Jackson: Zero given.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, it was awesome. It was awesome.
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah.
>> Myrna McCallum : Like you could just find peace in all the pain and peace and all the poverty. Like maybe not then, but like somehow now. And so I would say, I wouldn't say we trauma bonded, but I would definitely, definitely say that you and I saw so many parallels and almost like a kindred spirit in each other.
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah, well, this speaks to some of the questions about you know that time. And I don't know how, again, how deep you want to get into some of this, but one of the questions I'd love to start with is, you know, when you were young, first, first of all, it might be a bit of a two part question. First of all, was there just one cathartic, just one pivotal moment when you were younger where that just shifted everything for you at, ah, one moment and sort of related because obviously you went in a really amazing direction. what advice would you give to somebody who was sort of struggling in the same way you are? And again, I'll leave it to you to describe what that struggle is. Whatever you're comfortable with.
>> Myrna McCallum : Like, pivotal in what way, Shain? Because I would say there were so many pivotal moments in my life, but like pivoting me away from one thing towards another
>> Shain Jackson: I would say adolescence in that area, pivoting because I mean the journey you've taken, obviously there's been a lot of the lawyer journey, crossroads. Well that and just higher education, you know, deciding you're not going to stay where you're at, you know, like, were there, were there influences? Was it a, kind of a staged progression? Or did you just like, screw this, I'm going to like, I'm going to be a lawyer. I'm going to, you know.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah. I mean, gosh, like so many, so many things, like so many points in my life. I mean, as you know, like, I was abused really early on, sexually, physically. I, was abandoned many times. I was in and out of care. I went to residential school. Like I had a pretty fucking rough childhood. and what it taught, taught me then was really survival, but also like a deep sense of like worthlessness. Because I used to think, how could all these things happen to me? Like I must have no value for me to be harmed in this way. And especially being harmed by my own mother. when that person harms you, it's like, wow, you, you must be garbage if your own mother doesn't love you and wants to harm you. And so this is what I grew up with. And so multiple times I would say, beginning at 6, which is the first time I contemplated jumping off a train bridge. and then there were like many other periods in my life where I attempted suicide. Like I'd always come back to that, like just wanting to check out. But something, there was always something to like pull me back into, like not giving up. And then, And there were so many times I wanted to settle for a life or for death or for a life less than. I mean, when I ran away from residential school, I went back home to Green Lake. And it's just a tiny little know nothing village. And I, you know, I could have stayed there. I easily could have stayed there. Like I fell in love and my, that flipped my whole world upside down. And I could have stayed there and spent my whole life there. And I knew if I did that, like, I probably wouldn't have lived bit a little long time because it probably would have like eaten me alive. And I left. And I left like with the help of this guy's dad. Actually this guy's dad told me m. leave, like leave, don't stay here. You, are really smart, you can do something with your life, but you can't do that if you stay here. And you know, he was right. And so I left. And and then there were other moments in my life where I was trying to just settle, like, settle for some mediocre something. And something would always either pull or push me. So I have to say, like, my decision to go to law school, become a lawyer, all of that, like, I'm not sure how much of that was of my own, like comes from me or comes through me because I really truly. And this might sound woo woo for people listening, I honestly feel like there have been good spirits or ancestors or call them what you will working in my life and I'm kind of like they're pulling the strings to pull me forward, or push me out of this thing that I'm trying to settle for or the thing that I'm, you know, where I, where I could just like be comfortable in the misery, in the pain, in the poverty, in the whatever. And it's like, nope, not for you, not for you. We're going this way. And like all of that has to do with going to law school, never getting married, living, on the west coast, like raising my kids alone. Like all of these things, it hasn't been an easy, easy path that I've taken. It's been really lonely sometimes. and, and I don't mean lonely for like companionship. I mean, just like it feels like a lonely road sometimes where there's nothing and no one around. And yet I feel like it's the path that I'm supposed to take.
>> Shain Jackson: well, yeah, from an outsider's perspective, I often wonder about people. And again, I think you're, you're, from the moment I met you again, like, you have this like, energy that's not like Anybody else. And it's, you know, it's evident in everything that you do. I think that is probably very lonely to have of. You know, I hate, I don't know how to describe this quite the way that I want to, but I do think you're highly intelligent. I think spiritually, you're on a different plane. I think I've expressed, like, my vision, like, every year, like that angel, pendant that I. That I gave you. Like, this to me, like, I've had. I've had a lot of women in my life that have been, like, very influential, and I always kind of put them up on a pedestal. The ones that have been just so amazing. And every year since the, day I met you, you seem to almost embody this angelic sort of rise, you know, where you. You know, you go where. First of all, I think I told you this. Like, there are. There are world leaders that have not come as far as you've come, for. For what you've accomplished, both intellectually, spiritually, you know, psychologically. so every time I feel like you're almost levitating, you know, in this way. So that must be lonely in a lot of senses, you know, like, who. There's not a lot of people who have. Who have done that, you know, so. Yeah, I always cherish our friendship. And I always, like, you know, that's the lens I look at it through. And I'm very lucky to just, you know, to be good friends with you and to, you know, bounce my ideas off you and have that relationship where, you know, we can, We can lift each other up. But I can see where your loneliness comes from.
>> Myrna McCallum : And to answer your second question, I mean, like, home, when you go through this kind of. When you take this kind of path and, you know. So, like, for people who are like, how do I get to the next thing in my own life? How do I move from this place? You know, when all else fails, like, always, go to the water, go to the forest. Tap into your intuition, Call on your dreams, like the dreams you have when you sleep, to give you guidance, to give you information. Talk to your ancestors. Like, this is how I've done it. This is like, when all else fails, you find me hugging trees, talking to the water. And it's like. I know some people would think that's crazy, but it's. It works for me because I feel the connection to those things. And, so you gotta find what you feel connected to, and you gotta, like, tap into that line as often as you can. But I also want to say thanks for saying what you said because, like, really, no one gasses me up as much as you. Like, you're my own personal champion. Like, anytime I feel any kind of, like, shitty way, you always, like, you have a vision of me, me that is that you hold, which is oftentimes greater than the vision I have for myself. And when I'm not doing all right, that sometimes is the only thing that sustains me. So thank you.
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah, not at all. it leads me to the line of thought again about, like, self esteem, which, again, I find it, it's shocking. But do you think that's. That's what's driven you a lot of, is just like, trying to overcome those views of yourself, you know, so you're constantly striving to be better. And I've always said, like, you know, we take solace in the struggle, so we just kind of keep on moving no matter what. But there is something that drives you when you're in, like, law school and you're doing exams at bike, and you're studying at like 4 or 5 in the morning and pulling all nighters, and, like, there's something that drives you. And, do you think that, you know, this at least younger vision of yourself? Because I, I don't think it's as strong anymore, obviously. But, you know, it, it's upsets me and it makes me almost emotional to think about, like, yeah, we talked about little Myrna, you know, and little Shay and stuff like that. And, you know, I'm gonna swing back around to my other questions about the advice. Like, what would you say to yourself as, you know, little Myrna, thinking, oh, you know, my mom doesn't even love me. And this is, you know, nobody's ever gonna love me. And, you know, and that voice inside your head. What do you, what do you say? Because a lot of what's going to happen with Story Booth is I want to do a, stage section on adolescent, you know, and, you know, where, where kids can just sit here and scroll like Tik Toks and get these kind of little teachings. And I don't want to put you on the spot, but what would you say to, to little Myrna?
>> Myrna McCallum : I mean, it's really interesting that you're asking this question now, because, like, I mean, I'm 52 now, and it only just came to me, like, literally the last few days, I would try so hard to love people. Like, I would pour so much love into people who just didn't love me back like my mom. Like the guy who was my first love. I mean, I just poured everything into him, into, like, whether he. He would see it that way or not. Like I did. And even if my mom would see it that way or not, I did. And I would do that thinking. Like, I don't think I. I would think of it consciously, but I think subconsciously I would be like, just love me. Just like, I'm gonna love you so much, you're just gonna have to love me back. And then they just didn't. And what I've come to realize is, like, the person we need to pour all of our love into is our. Ourselves. Like, we need to love ourselves. Like love. Treat yourself the way you'd want someone else to treat you. Treat like, Treat yourself like you are sacred. Like, you are the most precious thing. You got to talk to yourself like that. You got to hold yourself like that. You got to make decisions from a place of love. Like, you know, would you be doing some of the things that you have done? Like, this is a question I'd ask, I would ask myself, or I was asking myself, would I have made those decisions, like, about some people that I was, like, messing around? Would I have done that if I loved myself? Absolutely not. Would I have put myself in this situation if I had loved myself? Absolutely not. Would I have allowed this to happen to me if I had loved love myself? Absolutely not. And so pour love into you. Pour love into you. Just find all of the ways and all of the tricks and all of the tips that allow you to, like, love yourself. And I mean, am I there now? I don't. I don't know. I'm working on it. But the awareness, I think, is like half of the trip, half of the journey. Like, this is what I need to do. This is where the love needs to go. And yeah, if there's anything I would want to tell any young people or anybody who is struggling with, like, the trauma of their childhood or the worthlessness that they've carried that people poured into them, like poor love. Like, just pour love into yourself, into you. Make choices that honor you, that validate you, center you, care for you, and only make decisions that are in alignment with self love. I mean, it's a. It's, you know, it's a work. I'm a work in progress, I would say. I'm always like that, but I'm striving for it. And anyway, I just figured that out, like, not that long ago, But I've been talking I want to, I want to flip the switch and like talk about you. What do you want to share about your childhood, about your. The like the lead up to law school?
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah, Yeah, I've often like again did sort of a post mortem of, of that time in my life because it you know, from growing up and you know I left home quite early. like yourself, I had some very serious sexual and physical abuse. I don't mind talking about that. obviously not in detail but I don't mind, you know, letting the world know. Yeah, I'm a survivor of these types of abuses. I m. Had a horrifying stepfather used to kick the shit out of me. and my mom was a pretty serious substance abuser. She wasn't a bad lady. She was struggling herself. She was not indigenous and you know, my father was indigenous. They were estranged and I used to have this string of stepfathers, you know. Anyways, got really bad to the point where I left home and I ended up out on the streets in Vancouver and you know, hanging out with gangs and you know, and doing whatever I had to do to survive. It was incredibly violent. the violence I saw was pretty top, top end. and I was the victim of a lot of that violence and I was the abuser in some of that violence. You know, a lot of. Yeah, so that, that set the stage for a lot of my worldview and I was extremely, extremely lucky. And you know again I had having lighter skin and like you know, attractive when I was. I was able to kind of find a girlfriend who wasn't from the streets. And it was interesting because when I was about 17 years old I ran into a whole bunch of trouble, you know, in Vancouver. And I met this I'll call it a girl because she was young too and they kind of. Her stepdad took me into their home and it was just amazing. All of a sudden I had a, like a stable environment and that was really what shifted a lot of things that I was very lucky that it shifted a lot for me. and I was able to have an avenue to, to get off the streets and to you know, get past some of the st. So this guy was just absolutely amazing. You know, he would drive me, I got a job in a wood shop and you know this guy would like drive me to my court dates and things like that. Cuz I had a whole bunch of charges I was still up on. you know, it just kind of got me through so I was very, very lucky. I couldn't get past all the things in my mind. so again, I was, I was, you know, and I still have struggles and stuff like that, but at that, at that point in my life, still trying to get past, you know, like yourself, like, you know, super low self esteem and you know, thinking I'm an imposter and stuff like that, and a lot of stuff hit me. So I would say that I was still, I was very suicidal. You know, the ideation was strong and m. Yeah, I mean, I didn't want to be around, you know, so I ended up, When that relationship ended, which it didn't end very well, with the. I would say a woman now because I was into my 20s with this woman. I was like, completely messed up. And I ended up, you know, leaving the city and leaving as far away as I could and I ended up just traveling like, and leaving the country.
>> Myrna McCallum : How old were you?
>> Shain Jackson: I mean, my early 20s, like 22, 23. I mean there's a lot that happened in between, you know, being on the street and then as well. But I'm just jumping forward to, you know, just the, the results of a lot of the, the trauma and again, going around the world. I used to like, you know, it's so funny because when you're in that state, you know, I mean, I'd suffered so much trauma and so much violence, so my comfort level was very heightened, for, you know, the capacity to deal with more trauma. And I ended up, you know, again, not really any, any value on my own life. I ended up going, you know, and traveling in some of the deepest, darkest places on the planet. Just, just looking really, just looking to find my end. but ended up like, you know, traveling like northern India and Kashmir during their crisis and you know, the Middle East. I live with Palestinians, but had some real, like a real amazing experience when I was in, when I was in Rwanda. So this was just after the genocide side. Yeah. And I remember talking a bunch of travelers and it was funny, I felt so bad afterwards for these people. Like, you know, like they just. I managed to talk them into going on this adventure which is really a bloody death run. so originally we were in Uganda. Ah. And we were going to go into Zaire, under. You know, to me the, the guys was that we were going to go see mountain girls, which I wanted to see as well, but I just wanted to be in the thick of it. And we ended up getting pushed back by UN vehicles in Uganda, they were coming into Kampala going, you can't go into Zaire now. The Democratic Republic of Congo. And I managed to talk everybody into going into Rwanda, which was absolutely insane. again, I don't want to take up a whole bunch of time in the podcast here to. To go over what happened, but we ended up in this little town called Runguri, which was, you know, the focal point of a lot of the genocide. And there was horrific things, that had happened around there. And again, I don't want to go into deep detail about some of the experiences I had around there, but I had this amazing experience in a, in a cafe in Gary, and it was hard getting things. So everything in the restaurants was like, you know, kind of like canned meat and this and that from aid stuff. So. But I'm in this. This restaurant, and there's this woman, and I just gotten up early, early, and I was just by myself, and, you know, and this woman was, like, a couple tables away from me. She's an African woman. And there was just something like, almost much like I was talking about your energy that comes off of you. Holy smokes. There was so much energy coming off this woman. And I remember I was reading this book, and it was this, you know, at the time, it was almost a backpacker's mandatory thing called. Called the Celestine Prophecy. And there was little bits in this book that were just like, oh, you feel this. You should just go make connection. I think that was in the back of my mind. So I went up and talked to her, you know, and she, She spoke mostly French, but she had pretty good English as well. It was a French place. but the stuff that we went through, like, we just talked for, like, you know, a couple hours. And she was, Christian woman who had been through, like, the absolute worst of the genocide. this woman still had, like, seething scars around her neck, and, you know, that hadn't healed, because this was quite recent.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah.
>> Shain Jackson: but she was involved heavily in the reconciliation movement. And, you know, and I was just like, there's a couple things I took from our conversation. One, just the beauty that this woman was exuding, having been through, like, the things that she was saying were essentially, you know, they would go round up all these people, and there was, like, moderate Hutus and, and tootsies. so they'd round them all up. The soldiers would kind of herd them into main areas, and then, the lieutenants or the, colonels or whatever would essentially say, who's living and who's dying, and then they would slaughter them there. And along the way, you know, you think about hurting people, you know, with, like, whips or whatever. They had machetes. So along the way, if somebody wasn't moving for. They just, you know, instead of a whip, they'd give him a chop. And, you know, so that's why there's so many people with these horrific scars, the ones that did make it. And, And apparently she had known the fella because, I think she was a moderate Hutu. She'd known the fellow that was making the decisions from her village, and he pardoned her. You know, her whole family got wiped out. So the fact that this woman could turn around and show all this love for her people and, you know, and be involved in this reconciliation movement and forgive everybody had its own sort of spiritual beauty to it. But what I took at the time was just. I wanted to be her. I really wanted to be her. And I felt like, you know, I'm sitting here going from, you know, war zone to war zone, trying to end myself. You know, how, bloody selfish is that? You know, I remember thinking to myself, like, why can't I just put, you know, my energies and. And to try. Like, this woman was just. I wish I would have stayed in touch with her, because it was just this one off. And I'd like to say that, you know, things changed immediately. they didn't. And I was still messed up for quite a while afterwards. and I still am to an extent. However, my focus slowly began to turn towards wanting that energy. So I'm gonna switch, swing it back to you. because that energy and the, you know, I was able to do what she'd done in some senses, and swing this from that trauma and the capacity that you, emotionally, you have to deal with a lot of things into service, you know, and when I think of what you. You've done, it's exactly the same kind of thing. And. And it's funny that you embody the same kind of energy, something that I really strive for. But, yeah, what are you. What are your thoughts? What's your reaction to that and your own story?
>> Myrna McCallum : It's so wild, like, just listening to you talk about this shank, like, you're like, okay, I. I want. Want that energy. Like, you have that energy. I mean, your capacity for love, for kindness, for forgiveness, for tolerance, like, exceeds anyone I've ever met. Like, the fact that we're still tight after all these years, that you've never Given up on me when I certainly, like, I'm not the easiest person to be in any kind of relationship, relationship with. Like, I don't call, I don't always show up, I don't like, always pick up, I don't, like, I go away for long periods of time sometimes. And you never give up on me. You still keep calling, you still keep inviting me, you still keep encouraging me to come out, whatever it is. Like you're like relentless in that way. Way in terms of like, your commitment to love, to not give up. Like you give up on, like I give up on myself and you, like, you don't give up on me. And I would say that embodies like what you're explaining from this woman. Like some of the people I'm sure that she probably was working with or wanting to work, work with probably gave up on themselves. Like in terms of like some of the things that we do because some of the things that we've had to do to survive create so much shame. And then the shame is like layered on top of already the, the self hatred and the low self esteem, and it just piles up and piles up and it's like. And then you meet someone who just loves you no matter what and sees the, the good in you. And I mean, those are powerful people. And I would say that is probably one of the, I've met a few people like that in my life. Like, so, interestingly enough, like these people I tried to pour love into who didn't love me back. Like my mom and my. My first love. My only love, actually. And I've only loved in a romantic way, this guy. And so it's interesting in that particular context I talked about, like, pouring love into these people who wouldn't love me back. But yet when I really needed someone to pull me out of the gutter and help me keep going, people would show up. Like this woman. Like, I had an elder come into my life when I was about 12 years old who did exactly that. I was trying to die again, and she pulled me up. Her name was Alice Swanson. I named my eldest daughter Alicia after her. And, that woman was known as Cookham Alley to everyone. One day, my daughter will be known as Cookham Alley. Vince Stogan, Musqueam healer and elder. When I came to law school for the first time in 98, he just loved me. And I was. I had so much horrible, like, anxiety, anxiety. And he would just like, pull me out of my home. I would drive him and his wife to ceremonies. And he would always talk to me like he just saw me m. And he just loved me and didn't ask me to change, didn't want anything from me. Like, that's what that Elder kôhkom Ally did for me. That's what Vince Stogen did for me. That's what you do for me. And, I would say that's what sustained me. But, like, you are that thing that you're talking about. Like, you might not see it, but you. You're that thing. I, on the other hand, am not that. Like, I still struggle with so much rage and so much pain and so much anger. Like, I want to soften up because I'm 52. I'm a grandmother. My eldest grandchild is eight. And I've seen angry, angry Indians, you know, like old angry Indians. I m. Don't want to be one of those, like, that stoic face I carried in my 20s, like, when you met me. That's not the face I want to have in my 50s and 60s. I want to be soft. I want to have a smile on my face. I want to be warm. I want to be approachable. I want to be loving. Like, that is now the next goal for me, to soften. All the things that I hardened over, like, a 30, 40 year period. I now need to work on softening. But you. You've been there a long time now. Like, and I wonder how you got there, because I don't know.
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah, again, I mean, I put out a good. I can put out some good vibes. I, Yeah, I still struggle.
>> Myrna McCallum : Well, it ain't smoke and mirrors, man. I've known you so long.
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah, well, yeah, I don't think anybody knows what we think when we're, you know, lying to bed, at night. Anyways, I wanted to talk. Segue that into, artwork, because it's to me, like, you know, I, you know, I make a living in the art.
>> Myrna McCallum : You're a badass artist.
>> Shain Jackson: Well, again, I feel like I'm just. I'm just starting to scratch the surface and there's, you know, I. I focus a lot of my time trying to understand, and. And gather teachings that have been lost. You know, there's so much that's been lost, but the stuff that we've gained back. and again, I'm so lucky to be, you know, mentored and taught by some really incredible Salish artists. And, you know, I definitely put my hands up to folks like Whole Octin and Splash, you know, Aaron Nelson Moody and. And you know, those two in particular have been huge influences on me and, you know, lots of other really incredible artists, like Jody Broomfield and, you know, Maynard. Johnny comes by once in a while. We have breakfast. And every time I talk to him, he's just got some amazing teachings, you know, along the way. So just gathering some of that back. And I know a lot of them, get, get it through their artwork and trying to understand you, know, these really sacred teachings. so there's sort of the informational and codification of our, again, our laws and our history and stuff like that in art. But there's also. It's very indicative of what's inside somebody when they put out an art piece from themselves. And some of them are quite straightforward. And others. I wanted to say that, when I've seen your artwork, it touches me because you're like, oh, and I gave you the bentwood box that you painted. And I just, you know, when I see what comes out of you and how you experience, express yourself. And let me see if I can frame this the right way because it was very emotional to me to see what you came out with. Because to me it speaks to the peace, speaks to the peace that you're after. And to, to me, like, we all have a vision. And it's like when you're not that I want to do a direct correlation with you and Hannibal Lecter, but I remember in like the Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal Lecter had drafted like, I don't know, Venice or something in his cell so he could overlook and that was his happy place. And you know, and when you're locked in with so much stuff to deal with internally, you know, especially when we're talking about like, self harming and, you know, and being. Seeing a better place somewhere else. you know, what is your vision of what that is? Because I see it in your artwork and I can see like, you, you know, looking off in the distance into this place that's happy, you know, And I know it has to do with nature and you mentioned, you know, nature and you love walks and stuff like that. but the meaning, you know, I think it has a more ethereal kind of meaning or something that's metaphysical or out there. That's what I feel when I see your art. It's just like. Yeah. Do you have any reflection on that?
>> Myrna McCallum : Wow, that's so sweet. And you're so generous to, even refer to what I make as art, because it's really just, Okay, it might sound like it's gonna sound more woo, woo. But I mean, you and I said this morning when we had breakfast, so one of the topics we wanted to talk about was spirituality. Right? And so I, I'll tell you, like, I think one of the reasons why whenever I paint, it always ends up being like something within the night sky, or it's a landscape or it's like trees or it's, it's water. It's always something in nature, I think is partly. Yes. Like what you're saying, talking about is like, I seek spaces like that. And I think that's why I really love living where I live here on the west coast. And like, living right in the forest is like, there's something so healing about being in nature. And like, if, if we were talking about vibrational energies, I think human beings tend to kind of like, like vibrate at a certain level, but when you're in nature, it vibrates at a higher level and then the vibe it gives off really does something. And I know that there's people out there who have studied, like, trees and land and water and like neuroscience and all the things and can attest to what I'm saying that it has a way of elevating your own energy and your own spirit, just being in it. And there have been times in my life where I have been so tapped in, where I could actually hear like a hum come off of, like the trees or off of certain leaves or off of the water off of the river. I can hear it humming. And then, and some other times in my life, like one, one moment I was so tapped into, I would say say love that I could hear the song of everything. Like, I could feel the vibration of the ground. I could feel like the humming that was coming off of the trees. I could hear a song in the wind all in that moment. And it's. So there's the world that exists somewhere beyond the world we live in, and then another world. And I think that when we're really tapped in and in tune and connected, we can access that. We can hear what's always going on. We can feel what's always going on. But so many of us are so disconnected, myself included. And we're so distracted by our phones and the podcasts and music and all of the conversations and the tiktoks and. And we don't hear what's actually playing right now, and we don't hear what's being said and we don't hear the message that's being given. And so I think that when I paint, I'm trying to like access a message. You know what I mean? I totally, it totally sounds like crazy. I know.
>> Shain Jackson: 100% I know you mean.
>> Myrna McCallum : And I hope, like, you know, when I go to India in March and I spend time off my phone and in like meditation that I open that main line back up again. Cuz I know I've disconnected it for a long time. Does that sound so woo woo? No, I've never said it out loud.
>> Shain Jackson: No, I'm, I'm so in tune with what you're saying.
>> Myrna McCallum : Like, how do you feel when you make art? Like, what are you dialing into? Are you tapping into? What are you some. Cuz sometimes I look at your art and I think, man, this dude is totally channeling somebody. Like the fact that you stepped away from legal practice, stepped away from law firm, that whole track, like you spent so much, so much time, energy and money into becoming a licensed lawyer, working in a firm. And then one day, boom, you weren't even that far into it, where you're like, nope, out I go. And then you started Spirit Works.
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah, well, I wasn't, I wasn't happy as a lawyer, you know, so that was, that was part of it. I loved the work that I did, but I just wasn't happy. I wasn't seeing enough of my kids. And you know, I mean, you know, when you're at Mendel Pinder, like, you're in for a penny, you're in for a pound if you're on a big file. And it's, you know, it's, you know, I'd see my kids in the morning before they got up, and then again at night after they'd gone to bed. so that was part of it. But the other part is I was, I was always mesmerized by the. This, the meaning within the art and the fact, like, spiritually there's so much more to it, you know, like this connection. and again, I still feel like I'm, in my infancy. I'm still learning. Like I'm trying to learn and get, you know, I feel like, you know, almost in one of these movies where they're going back and looking at old Egyptian hieroglyphics and, you know, and then a door will open and you know, and then you can walk in and go talk to the creator. So I don't know, but there's, there's stuff like that within our artwork that's just so amazing. I've had some experiences with some old artifacts where, you know, There was one with a community, where I saw an old artifact. I won't go into the detail about that because I don't know how much I'm supposed to say about some of these sacred items. But let's just say this one sacred item, as soon as you saw it, there was like, you know, this, you were talking about that vibrating energy and everything around ah was so sacred and you know, that there was something spiritual that it was used for. And it was like. So I, there's that aspect of it, of having that connection and, you know, having some answers. yeah, I mean, I, I, I'd love, say, the shore because I'm, I, I don't understand enough of it. So it's a constant, like trying to meet with artists. And again, like, you know, I'm so lucky to be connected with some of these folks because they fill in some of the gaps. yeah, well, what more could you ask for than a constant never ending, you know, enlightenment? so I, I feel that, like I'm on this spiritual enlightenment journey. And you know, I mean, some of it is just, you know, you can live your life by. And again, you came with this, you know, revolving to me like this is a plane of existence and it's just like, you know, you're in the womb and you're coming into this earth and in the womb you're just, you know, you're developing arms and legs and things that you need in this world. If you'd ask a baby if they could comprehend, you'd be like, oh, yeah, you know, how you feeling? He's like, oh, it's kind of cramped in here. I don't really need that. Be a lot more comfortable if I didn't have these things, you know, and then the baby gets into this world and they're like, oh, yeah, this is great, you know, I can do stuff with it. Well, I think we're in another plane of existence. You know, the baby comes from, nothing gets developed. It's born into this world. This is like a big womb where we develop other things that are non physical. And this is where I think a lot of the answers lie in our artwork, you know, about that next stage. Because in our indigenous view, you know, we learn virtues, you know, like, you think of some of the most sacred indigenous sort of symbols and numbers, like the four, you know, our sacred number four, like unity within diversity, taking the best of what everybody has to offer and sharing it, you know, making our ourselves greater and things like that. Like those are virtues. Sharing, you Know, empathy, love and compassion and things like that. These are the things that we need for the next world, you know, And I think this is why I'm so impassioned about our artwork, is because if we can get this through to the rest of the world in a way, especially at a time like we're in right now where these people. And I think they're stunted, they're inside the womb, essentially cutting off their own arms and legs because they're like. It would make me more comfortable here to have a big mansion and some yachts and some buffer zones around me and, you know, and all this money and wealth and everything. It's not going to do them any good in the next world, but it makes them comfortable here. And they haven't taken on those virtues. Yeah, those virtues don't mean anything to them, you know, charity and love and compassion and empathy. And they're, you know, in our. From what I've learned from our teachings, is that, you know, that's some pretty base stuff, you know, so my hope is that through our artwork, you know, we're able to promote these more spiritual views, you know, and. And maybe there isn't another plan. So we just loved each other, and we're compassionate for nothing, you know, like,
>> Myrna McCallum : so even if there is nothing, it's still not for nothing.
>> Shain Jackson: Exactly. Yeah.
>> Myrna McCallum : But there is something.
>> Shain Jackson: Oh, I think there's.
>> Myrna McCallum : Okay. I want to have, I want to pivot and ask a question. I mean, you've talked about spirituality, art,
>> Shain Jackson: a little bit about law, but.
>> Myrna McCallum : And, like, capacity to love. But what I had on my list was becoming a good man. Let's talk about that for a minute. Because, I mean, like, if, you know, truth be told, probably one of the other reasons I really didn't like you was because you were a guy. And, I've had a lot of adverse experiences with. With dudes, with men. And, you know, like, you're a good man, and there's not in my. I haven't met a lot of good men. And I know that for you, like, because I know a lot about your. Your background. Like, that took a lot of intention for you. So I want to know, at what point in your life did you make the intention, I'm gonna be a good man. And what does that take? What does it take to be a good man?
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah, that's a little.
>> Myrna McCallum : Especially when maybe you haven't had that model for you all the time, you know?
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah. Well, this is one of the reasons. Again, jumping back to story Booth I, had a really hard time trying to define what a man was. I mean, to me, especially growing up, a man was somebody who was quite violent and, you know, imposed his will on everybody around him. And, you know, and this is on my indigenous and non indigenous side, you know, so I have to say, while I was young and I was lucky to be, you know, raised by my mom and my mom struggled, but she was a good lady and she, you know, been, you know, violently sexually assaulted and stuff like that. So I had those influences, kind of like, you know, guiding me towards, like, you know, respecting women. And I have to say, like a. Was difficult growing up trying to like, marry those two and be totally respectful of women while also trying to be a man. And, you know, and it's, it's, it was so weird. but I have to say, like, you know, one of my goals was to be a strong person but still have what you, you know, when I was younger, what I considered more feminine values, you know, of, you know, embracing, you know, your softer sides. And yeah, it's, it's hard for me to describe because I think as I got older, I knew what I didn't want. and especially, especially after having daughters, you know, I wanted to embrace a softer side and, you know, you touched on, you know, our relationship. obviously I absolutely adore you and love you. but I also want to be the type of person that is there, you know, who never, you know, I got let down so much by everybody, you know, especially the men in my life that I never want to let anybody down. I want to be there for everybody. which is, you know, which I think if you want to define what a woman's traits and what a man's kind of traits are, and I was to describe what I thought the perfect man would be, I do think there is a protective aspect of it. I'm still highly protective. I'm not violent. You know, I would be if I had to protect somebody that I, that I know and love. But, you know, I want people to feel comfortable both emotionally, physically, around me, knowing that I've gotcha, you know, I'm, I'm gonna be there and I'm not gonna flake out. So that was really important. And, and again, I want to create, a section within story booth with people talking about these stories about, you know, if I could have had, you know, tick tock, little tick tock, stories of dudes, you know, going, this is what I feel like what being a man is about. You know, and. And this is how I express this. I, think it could guide a lot of, young men in a way that I never got. And I know a lot of other, you know, both non indigenous and indigenous men don't have. I mean, look at where we are now with all these little, like, problems we're having in the States with people that don't understand what masculinity is, and then they. They just fall prey to people who are perfectly willing to. Willing to tell them what masculinity is if it serves them.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah.
>> Shain Jackson: You know, so doing that in a positive way.
>> Myrna McCallum : I think maybe it actually just comes down to, like, just choosing to be a good human, just being a good human being, and maybe not so much about the binaries of what makes for a good woman, what makes for a good man. It's just like, how do I just be, like, a good person and, like, use my life, in a good way, Bring goodness to people.
>> Shain Jackson: Yeah. Well, again, I have to try and figure out how to frame this, for our story booth, because obviously, you know, I think women, men, two spirit folks, like, you know, everybody needs to hear all these influences, so somebody wants to wheel through all of them. I know as, as a, as a man growing up, I would have wanted to hear some man stories, like, you know, struggles they had and where they were going. and I'm m. Certainly open to, obviously, every perspective. I don't know. I've seen a lot of, especially, yeah, I've seen a lot of young people today that are really struggling.
>> Myrna McCallum : So maybe you need a whole segment on, like, just identity. Like, what does it mean to, you know, be a man in today's like. Like, today? What does it mean to be a woman? What does it mean to be two spirit? What does it mean to be queer? What does it mean to be, like, all of these different. There's so many identities.
>> Shain Jackson: Well, I'm looking forward to, like, again, I'm kind of going, to school off a lot of what you do with your podcast, so that when we are sitting here on the story booth that we will be able to sort of tackle all these different areas. yeah, it's the beginning of, hopefully, a big enlightenment for me being able to do this. Yeah.
>> Myrna McCallum : Awesome. Okay, any closing comments, thoughts, questions, little, Little morsels of wisdom you want to leave the people with?
>> Shain Jackson: nothing, really. I'd love how you talk about love. Maybe I'll tell that story with my, my elder, Theresa Jeffrey. She's the one that actually headed up the elders and giving them my name, Nanawam. but I remember she used to teach me some of our language. And she was going through, some of her old documents, and I came across this. O Canada, sung in our language. At the time, I think I was a young boy or maybe even articling or something like that. I'm like, hey, don't you think this means, like, we're colonized? And she just looked at me, you know, and she. She was just like, you know what? everybody's talking about decolonization, decolonizing this, that, and stuff like that. And she's like, if you really, really wanted to decolonize, all we got to do is one thing, and everything emanates from it. I'm like, oh, what? And she's like, we just have to love each other again. That's it. Everything emanates from that. and she's right. You know, the worst thing that the residential schools ever taught our people was to hate each other and to be angry and tear each other down. So, you know, I think if we can. If we can love each other, I think it really is the answer to still this stuff. Like, I think about your and I's relationship here. I mean, there is so much love here. look at how much of the world's problems we solve, even if it's just between you and I. But, yeah. Theresa Jeffries, I'd like to close with love.
>> Myrna McCallum : Oh, I love you, Shain All right. Thanks for chatting with me.
>> Shain Jackson: Thanks for being on storybooth.