Heather Hart, host of the I'm Human Too podcast and Spokane area therapist stops in to chat with me about psychedelic assisted therapy. For more info on psychedelic assisted therapy or to find a therapist, visit maps.org and https://firesideproject.org/ And be sure to check out Heather's podcast: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show/imhumantoo/episodes/Introducing-Im-Human-Too-with-Heather-Hart-e2hgom5 Please also check out: www.myrnamccallum.co/jat2025 for info about my upcoming conference, where Heather will be speaking on how psychedelics are studied and used to heal trauma.
Heather Hart, host of the I'm Human Too podcast and Spokane area therapist stops in to chat with me about psychedelic assisted therapy. For more info on psychedelic assisted therapy or to find a therapist, visit maps.org and https://firesideproject.org/ And be sure to check out Heather's podcast: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show/imhumantoo/episodes/Introducing-Im-Human-Too-with-Heather-Hart-e2hgom5 Please also check out: www.myrnamccallum.co/jat2025 for info about my upcoming conference, where Heather will be speaking on how psychedelics are studied and used to heal trauma.
🎵 AUDIO/MUSIC CUE🎵
>> Myrna McCallum : I'm Myrna McCallum, Metis Cree lawyer and passionate promoter of Trauma informed layering. Welcome back to the Trauma Informed Lawyer Podcast. As you know, I believe that law schools and bar courses are missing a critical competency requirement in their curriculum. Trauma Informed Lawyering. Becoming a Trauma Informed lawyer will, among other things, challenge you to critically reflect on your personal behaviors, beliefs and biases, call on you to positively transform the way you approach advocacy, guide your practice to avoid doing further harm to others, and ask that you commit to remaining open to learn new and old knowledge you didn't know you needed before beginning your career. Your education starts right here, right now.
🎵 AUDIO/MUSIC CUE🎵
>> Myrna McCallum : Hi there, Heather Hart. Welcome to the Trauma Informed Lawyer Podcast. How are you?
>> Heather Hart: I'm good, thank you. Thank you for having me on.
>> Myrna McCallum : Well, I'm excited to have you on. I've been wanting to have this conversation with you for some time about psychedelic assisted therapy. But before we get into it, I just want to invite you to say a few words about what you do, who you are, where you're zooming in from for this recording for those who don't know you.
>> Heather Hart: Yeah, so I'm Heather Hart. I'm a licensed mental health counselor out in Washington state in the United States. I'm located in Spokane, Washington. I've been practicing for about 10 years now, and really started, diving into the psychedelic world of therapy about three years ago. So, I love what I do, I love the people that I work with. and yeah, that's a little bit about me.
>> Myrna McCallum : So what was the interest in psychedelic assisted therapy?
>> Heather Hart: Yeah, so I really take the standpoint that people can heal themselves and that we don't go to therapy to stay in therapy forever and stay in the same cycles or the same patterns. But really it's a support to get you to the place you need to be mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, to be just more solid in your healing journey where you feel like empowered. and so that's what really drew me to psychedelics is it's kind of this wild world of self empowered healing that we don't often see in more western clinical therapy. and really I think what drew me in was, my own mental health. I was kind of at a place where, I'd been in the field for quite some time. I had my own trauma history, I'd experienced a lot of trauma in the field. and I needed additional support and so I chose that journey for myself and it was so powerful. so then I Kind of, you know, started looking into what would it look like, on a clinical level if I was able to offer this modality. because that's what it is. It's just another modality of many. Right. Sometimes it works for certain people and sometimes it doesn't. So yeah, that's what helped me get to where I am now, the first step.
>> Myrna McCallum : Interesting. Interesting. Well, I don't know where to begin with the questions that I have. I mean, is it legal? I mean that's something, some people sent me like DM M questions. Is it legal? Because I think some folks are curious, but they're like, is it legal? And, and is it, why isn't it readily accessible like EMDR and all the other things?
>> Heather Hart: Yeah, it's not legal. there are certain clinics that operate within the US And Canada, Mexico, various locations in Europe. Switzerland is a big one where you can access psychedelic ah, medicine. whether we're talking MDMA or psilocybin, ayahuasca is not really on that list yet. but they are doing clinical studies and so you can apply to be a patient at those clinics, and then you're under medical advisement. It's part of clinical trial in the United States. This last year, MDMA specifically was up for FDA approval and it did not go all the way through, sadly. So, no, it's not. None of it is legal above ground. So the buy in for me really was, I'd rather be formally trained in it when that is still very accessible and be ready for when it does get legalized because I do believe it will be legalized eventually. I mean it was all legal in the 60s, before our government wanted to be like, no, it's too dangerous, you know, and took it all away. but all the research is readily available on maps.org, the clinical trial information, even ibogaine. Up in Canada there's lots of clinics and research. so it's as medically sound as any other modality or drug out there. In fact it's probably more researched, if you will.
>> Myrna McCallum : So what does the research say about these medicines or substance? I don't know what you call them. Are they medicine? Are they substances, Are they controlled substances? I don't know. But like, what does the, what did the study say about them?
>> Heather Hart: Yeah, I think it depends on what community you're sitting in. Right. Like in a more non westernized community, we would call it medicine. A, lot of these practices have been around for millennial. and have been used ancestrally, come from a deep wisdom. If we're sitting in a more Western clinical group, then it would be called a controlled substance because the government does, categorize it as such.
>> Myrna McCallum : Are the studies solely done on people who have diagnosed, ah, post traumatic stress disorder? Is it for folks with anxiety, depression, complex ptsd? What can you say?
>> Heather Hart: Yes, the research is very broad. they started with individuals who have complex ptsd, and meet criteria for that, and went through rigorous assessment testing. So for mda, MDMA specifically, which is what I'm trained in, research shows that within three sessions, symptomology will drop by 98.7%, which is. Right, we say three years talk therapy, three months EMDR, three sessions of MDMA is really what we're looking at when we talk about efficacy. And it has, such a high success rate. so it's not to say it's like a magic pill. Nothing's a magic pill. But if we take someone who is really suffering with things like, you know, addiction, disordered eating, rage, the things that you typically will find as far as, like, comorbidity and complex ptsd, and we get some, someone to a functional place and there's a 98% chance we can do that. Like, that's what the research says. Why wouldn't we do that? But they've done studies on veterans, they've done studies on disordered eating, they've done studies on couples, they've done studies on complex ptsd. really it's. I mean, it really has been studied for the last, you know, 50 years. so there's so many different populations that they've worked with, and there's new studies coming out all the time. So really we're, seeing what is most effective. And when we think about things like anxiety and depression, that's a part of, the structure of someone who suffers from complex ptsd. You see that depression drop, you see that anxiety drop. with psilocybin, the research is there. although the medicine works different within someone, we're seeing different results and different need, and different support. and then same with Ayahuasca. Again, there's a lot of research there. but again, it's a different medicine, a different substance, so the research looks a little different. And I can't speak to those success rates off the top of my head. I don't, I don't work within those circles enough.
>> Myrna McCallum : You took an interest in MDMA and decided to get trained in that. Is it because that was the, the training that was readily available or accessible or was. Did you have a certain connection to mdma?
>> Heather Hart: Yeah, good question. I was actually at a festival, and I walked in on this guy speaking, and he was from maps.org and he was speaking specifically about MDMA. And as a mental health provider, you know, I'm always looking for additional things to add into my work and my practice. because again, like, I'm not of the mindset that like, one therapy is the thing. I think it takes a broad spectrum. So I walk in, I hear him talking about kind of this medicine and what it's doing in the brain. And MDMA specifically will boost, multiple chemicals in the brain all at once. And the most important one is oxytocin, which is the connection piece that, keeps us in relationship. So, like, when we're looking into someone's eyes or when we're holding someone's hand, or we feel really loved and connected by someone, it's that oxytocin chemical in the brain that is boosted. So MDMA is the only medicine that will boost that in the brain, as well as your dopamine, your serotonin, et cetera, et cetera. So the ability that MDMA has to allow people to feel connected to themselves, right. Trauma is the essence of disconnection from self. So MDMA really resets and rewires the brain so that people can reconnect to themselves in a loving way, and reconnect to the world in a loving way. So as he talked about this, I was like, oh, my gosh, like, what a wild world. To be able to kind of shrink our ego and shrink the self protection that is often created when trauma happens and to be able to be in a more calm, vulnerable state when being in relationship with other people without always the fear or anxiety of like, you know, what are they thinking of me, what am I, how am I being, you know, received? instead it's like, oh, I love myself and, you know, I want to be with other people. Like, that intrigued me so much.
>> Myrna McCallum : Okay, so is, is mdma, is that, is that Molly? Is that ecstasy? Is it the same, all the same thing?
>> Heather Hart: Yeah, it's all the same thing. I mean, when you're, when you're in a clinic, obviously you're getting clinical grade. So there's not, it's not convoluted with any other substances. It's pure, which means that you, aren't going to like, take Somali and like party at a festival and like, you know, roll for a couple hours, you're like shot to the moon and back. but you are always aware of who you are, where you are, who's around you. You always have some semblance of control in your body and your surroundings. It's like a duality of consciousness. You're inside doing really hard reparative work and you're aware of your, your outside world as well. so yeah, we look at things like psychedelics or even ayahuasca. And that duality, that tether to consciousness co. Consciousness is not always there.
>> Myrna McCallum : No it is not. And now, now I know after going to Peru to do ayahuasca. yeah, but let me ask this question though, about the like psychedelic assisted therapy practice. So say somebody is like going into a clinical setting, working with a therapist, they have a program and now they're in the part of the program where they're going to be consuming psychedelics. And is that something that they do alone in a clinical setting? Or is the therapist in there with them? Or, And then how are the insights or the whatever? Well, I guess it's insights. Like how is that monitored or reported?
>> Heather Hart: Yeah. So there's a lot of legalities that I was taught as far as protocol, consent, things like that for client safety. Because, right. Normally in regular talk therapy, someone is able to fully consent because they're fully conscious. Right. When someone is on drugs, they are not fully conscious. And so we really have a lot of ethical discussion around the ability to consent when under substance. So we're extremely conservative where it is video recorded, but you don't have access to the video unless you want it because it's clinically owned. It's for, you know, FDA approval. so, and just for right, your safety and the clinician safety. So if you know, you do a session and you're like, yeah, I want to watch my tape, like, okay, then you have access. And really, it's, it's all about being present with self and present with clinician and client. How do I describe this without sounding really wild and loosey goosey? It's all touch and go, right? We get full consent, like even touch consent, which is really a crazy concept in the therapeutic world. Like we do not touch our clients. Like absolutely not. that's a very gray area, very black and white at times. but in this therapy, right, with the oxytocin, like if someone is spiraling or stuck and they say, will you hold my hand? Right. And this is all outlined in touch consent of like, how do I hold your hand? How long can I hold your hand? How many minutes can pass before I have to ask for reconstruct? Because you might be, you know, in a completely different headspace than you were 20 seconds ago? So all of it is very conservatively outlined prior. And then during session, it's all, you know, malleable. Essentially, you might go in thinking, I want. I want to hold your hand. And then you're in it, and you're like, get the f away from me. Right. Don't even look at me. so it's really. The therapist is present. but we stay very separate in a sense. Unless you want us engaged, which the more.
>> Myrna McCallum : More of, like, it sounds like therapist is more of an observer and less of a participant.
>> Heather Hart: Yes. Yeah.
>> Myrna McCallum : Okay. And so for people who are opting into this kind of therapy, especially if there's some anxiety around being under the influence of some substance, can they bring, like, a support person for them whose role is simply to do that bit, like, hold the hand, give them a hug, reassure, them when they're afraid, but then otherwise kind of back away? I don't know if there's role for a third party to participate in that way.
>> Heather Hart: There's not. merely because what we're doing is we're trying to build connection between the person and themselves. Right. Because that's been broken. So if we. Even as a clinician, if I'm interjecting too much for someone who maybe doesn't trust themselves, and so they always go to the other person to, like, validate me, validate me, Validate. Right. Like, I want that person out of that loop of seeking external support, and I want them in a new loop of relying on themselves and trust.
>> Myrna McCallum : yeah, I see. I see. It's kind of like eliminating a scapegoat or someone that you could default to. To project upon or whatever, because the work is for you to do with yourself. And so, that probably requires some degree of just being alone in that experience.
>> Heather Hart: Totally.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah.
>> Heather Hart: And that's really even. You know, in moments where people are really stuck and they want to. They'll pop out and they want to engage you. Like, they want to talk about what's going on. Even as a clinician, you'll say, can you spend some time going back inside? Like, it sounds like you're doing wonderful work. Like, put your eye mask back on. Like, go be with yourself. So you're even redirecting your job really is to observe, make sure that they're medically safe, and redirect them to the places where they want to go. So even if they get in a loop and they're like, you know, I'm not ready, I'm not ready, I can't go there, I can't go there. It's like, okay, you don't have to go there. Can we just sit with curiosity around why? And usually that is just enough to like open the doors and the person can go where they need to go. The whole mentality and framework around MDMA is that everyone has what they need in order to heal themselves. That's what I love about it is it takes the ego out of the entire process of healing for them. For you as a clinician, even in a clinical therapeutic framework, it's just not about right, like doing the right thing, like none of that is present.
>> Myrna McCallum : I really like that idea that like, you have what you need to take care of yourself and to heal yourself. Because I think there are therapists out there for sure who benefit in more ways than one by having clients become dependent on them. And they're in therapy for years and there's no real improvement to their situation or to their perception of themselves in the world. So I like that you have the power to establish reconnection. You have the power to feel safe in your body and it can only come from you
>> Myrna McCallum : 100%. And you know, I mean, to be clear, like, it can take years of preparatory work in the therapeutic setting to even get to the place where you understand what needs to be healed, right? Like, we don't want anyone who has no self awareness or self reflective abilities or capabilities to, to do this work, right? You like lose your, lose your mind. You have to have some sort of structure or framework in the brain, right? You have to have a stabilization within yourself first before you can do that healing in a really safe way to the brain, and the psyche. so my recommendation is like, find a therapist who can, do really good nervous system work, whether it's EMDR or ifs, so that you understand what you're even trying to heal, right? Because if you go in and you're like, well, I'm, I'm really anxious all the time or I'm really depressed or I've had all these traumas and you've never really explored those traumas and ego, feels very fragile around those traumas. And then you go, do mdma. There's a lot of risk in that, right? Because you might have been super dissociated during all of that trauma. So then MDMA opens those doors and now you have this new awareness and then you have no therapeutic support after. Well, holy shit. Like then you're going to be in a worse space after. So. Yeah, you know, I mean the work I do is very attachment based based. so that pre, pre work that we do for stabilization and the post integration work is almost more important than the medicine session itself. Right. Because you have all these revelations and you have to know, well then how do I want to integrate this into my life? Right. I have this new awareness, this new self responsibility. What does that actually look like when I go back into my life and back into relationship with other people? That can be really hard and scary.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yes, and yes, like a thousand times. Like I know this now from lived experience. So I'll share with you, Heather. Like last time we saw each other up in Whistler in September, I told you I was going to, Peru and that I was planning on doing going into ayahuasca ceremony. I was supposed to be at this place in the Amazon jungle for like a week and do like multiple ayahuasca ceremonies and some other ceremony, like some other substances. I can't remember the names of those things, but there's something that they like blow up your nose and it sends you, I don't know, somewhere. and there was some other thing. Anyway, I tapped out after the first, the first ayahuasca ceremony. I'm like, the very next day I left. and so maybe this is a cautionary tale for people who are listening and thinking about doing, psychedelics or thinking about doing ayahuasca. I'm just gonna say in total like transparency and honesty. Like maybe I'm one of the people that you were just talking about who wasn't really fully prepared and didn't really do all the work. Like, definitely I believe I have a healthy degree of self awareness and I have some concept of, you know, just how deeply ingrained my trauma is and all the ways in which it manifests and interferes in my ability to connect to people and connect to myself. And I've been in therapy, that has seen me through crisis moments in my life. So I think probably more crisis therapy is what I've been in versus like ongoing. Like let's solve a problem. It's just like, let's keep me alive, until I can stay alive on my Right, It's. It was kind of like that. And so I Haven't been in therapy in years. And I often rely on our joke about how, you know, I go into the forest and I walk in the forest and I hang out with the trees and I look at the ocean and I pray to the Creator and I smudge and like, that's my form of therapy, but really it's my form of just feeling connected to something outside of myself. Because I find it really hard to feel connected to other people. And I certainly sometimes find it really hard to even feel connected to myself because as I was telling Blueberry yesterday, my youngest daughter, I feel so fundamentally broken. I just can't, I can't create real meaningful connections, with myself, with other people. It's like, I don't know what it is, but trauma is trauma. So. So people listening to this podcast know that I had a really hard year. My brother, died of a fentanyl overdose. He'd been homeless on the downtown east side a really long time as a result of having, endured childhood abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, and then, enduring several years in a residential school. Maybe what I should have done was find a therapist, but, like, therapists are hard to come by. Like, the good ones are hard to find. maybe there were a million things I should have done instead of deciding to go to Peru, but whatever, I went to Peru. For the most part, I had a blast. I hiked up to Machu Picchu. I did all these things alone. I didn't get altitude sickness. I was really proud of myself. Like, all of these great things happened when I was there and I met some cool, cool people and it was really reinforced just how independent I am and how I absolutely can take care of myself. But then I went into the jungle, right, to do this ayahuasca thing, and they didn't really have an orientation. I haven't done any kind of self psychedelics since I was a little kid, and little, I mean, like 11 years old when psychedelics were kind of forced upon me. So I had a bit of a history of trauma around drugs. So I had some nervousness, but there was, like no orientation, no explanation. Everyone spoke Spanish and we were like down this horrible back road into the jungle, far from everything, no electricity. The only place you could get like WI fi was to go stand in this one area somewhere. It was a horror. Like, you certainly couldn't Uber a ride to get out. You couldn't do anything. And then it only occurred to me just how powerless, helpless, and maybe what a bad decision it was. That I came here to do this when I was 30 minutes after I ingested ayahuasca and I'm sitting in this massive pot with like 10 strangers and it's pitch black and they're singing, you know, Ikaros. And I don't know what the hell's going on, right? But at that point I'm in it and it's too late. And so what they don't tell you and I, what I wish people would have told me who've done ayahuasca is. So this was the misconception or the belief or the thing that led me there was like, folks said, oh, it's like 10 years of therapy in one night or 20 years of therapy in one night. Like all these things, like, are kind of revealed to you and your whatever. And that was the thing I was seeking, right? I wanted just like, I don't want to talk to anyone about how I feel, what I live through. I just want to be healed. Like 10 years of pain healed in one night. Like, let's do it, right? And so what no one told me, and I guess what I didn't ask was how does ayahuasca, ah, like, affect your body? Because I knew that it takes you kind of out of your body, out of your mind, and you go somewhere else. I was prepared for that, like the hallucinations, but I wasn't prepared for how all of a sudden, like, my right arm became really numb and then I couldn't lift it. And then I thought I was having a stroke. And then thinking I was having a medical crisis then threw me into a full blown panic attack. And then I was hyperventilating and then I couldn't breathe and my heart was racing. So it all led one thing to another thing to another thing. And there was nobody there. There was nobody I trust. I didn't feel safe, right? And I didn't feel like I had anyone supporting me. And, and I didn't know what was happening. And it was probably a few minutes before I felt like the numbness crawl across my, my chest and go into my other arm. And then very quickly after that, it turned into vibration. Like my arms were fully vibrating. And then I was having like these audio hallucinations. And, it was terrifying. Like, that was the terrifying piece. But it was when the vibration was happening that it occurred to me, okay, hold on a second. Maybe I'm not having a stroke. Maybe this is just an effect of the ayahuasca. Like, this is what it does. And So I was trying to calm myself down, but I was certainly hyperventilating, and I was starting to pray, and I was like, oh, my God. This was a mistake. I should have never come here. I will never do this again. I swear. If I could just survive the night. I will leave in the morning. Like, I don't know who I'm negotiating with. but then all of a sudden. All of a sudden, I see a man. Like, in my. Wherever my mind is going, like, it's there. It's not physical. I see a man show up, and he looks like one of my people. Like, he's got a braid, he's brown. Like, he looks like one of my people. And he says to me, why did you come here? And I don't even get to respond before he says, you know, Myrna, like, we have our own ceremonies, and we have our own medicine. Like, this is not our way. And this is not. Like, this is not our medicine. Like, what you're looking for, you can find at home. Like, you need to go to your own ceremonies, your own people, your own way. And, boom. And then he was gone. And then. And then all of a sudden, you know, the hallucinations began with, like, I was seeing cartoon characters that were oversized, and they're just kind of observing me. I'm observing them. Nothing is being spoken. I don't make any sense of it. And then I suddenly start to feel labor pains. And then I'm like, oh, is this. Like, what is this? Is this m. I'm still. I'm trying to analyze stuff because I live in my head, right? Like, that's how I cope. That's how I stay alive. And I'm like, okay, what is this? Is this mother wound stuff? What's going on now? Right?
>> Myrna McCallum : And I'm having, like, labor pains, and I'm like, is this Alicia? Is this Eric? Is this Blueberry? Which child is it? Okay, who do. Who do I have to do some work on? Like, I'm trying to stay here, but I'm also very cognizant of, like, keeping my body safe, because I'm still not sure what these physical symptoms are that's going on. And so. So as much as, like, the ayahuasca takes you out of your body and you're kind of untethered and you go into the universe, I am desperately also trying to hold on to my physical self because I'm very concerned for my physical safety. So I don't think I'm. I'm definitely. I'm not Enjoying this experience. By no means. And, yeah, and then I realize as soon as I'm trying to analyze, like, what's going on, whose labor is this? Then. Then I, And it's going to get a little graphic for folks, so, like, you might want to mute. This is your trigger warning. I'm going to talk a little bit about, sexual stuff. sexual abuse. I'm going to talk about genitalia. So all of a sudden, I just see a vagina. And. And then I see a baby crowning, like, the head coming out of a vagina. And it's, like, very blue. And then it occurs to me, oh, my God, Like, I'm feeling my mother's labor with me, and I'm seeing my birth because I almost died when I was born. Like, I was very blue. I needed a blood transfusion. I was having. I was having a medical emergency when I was 4, and so they thought I was going to die. But anyway, so I'm watching this, and it's hitting me like, oh, my God. This is. This is my. My birth. And, But in it, I also am feeling the void. Like, there's nothing. Like, there's no feeling. I'm observing. I don't feel love. I don't feel anger. I don't. I'm just observing, like, me emerging into the world. And then fast forward probably six months, I see my body, like, my baby body, kind of like laying in a crib or something. And I began to see, like, all these, All these penises, different sizes. Like, some belonging to boys, clearly. Some belonging to men, clearly kind of being shot at my body. Body like a dagger, like daggers being thrown. And then it occurs to me as I'm observing this. Okay, so the sexual abuse started when I was this age. so probably like, six months old. And then all of a sudden, now I'm somewhere else. And I see who I presume to be Mother Ayahuasca. And her face is made of stars, and she's wearing a white gown, and she's got gold, like a gold crown and scepter, and it looks wild. And there's this kingdom behind her with guards, and she's kind of floating toward me, but her face is made of stars. And she just simply says, your fear is really strong. So I'm going to work with you in your dreams. And then, boom, all of a sudden, I start purging about seven or eight times. And the last time, I see a massive serpent come out of me. And then. And then that was it. The Effects started to wear off and I crawl through. I crawled through the jungle back to my hut, and, in the middle of the night. And then the next day I was out of there. But it, you know, as. I don't know if you call it luck or what or what have you. Like, I only met one other, ah, English speaking person the whole time I was in Peru and he was a guy from Tokyo and we met at Machu Picchu. And but all of a sudden I'm now in the elevator and I'm like, I'm getting the hell out of here is what my mindset is. And because I was so freaked out by what was happening and the lack of safety I was feeling in my body. And then I meet a guy with this guy gets on the elevator. His name's Sal. He looks at me, he's like, where are you from? I said, vancouver. He's like, no way, I'm from Vancouver Island. He's like, are you here for ayahuasca? I was like, I was, I'm leaving now. And he's like, oh, yeah, I've been doing ayahuasca for like 13 years. Then we sat down and I debriefed my whole thing with him because I asked him if I could and he said yes. And then he's validating. Oh yeah, Myrna, like somebody should have told you. Yes, Your body can have all kinds of sensations and it's usually like vibrational. Things are trying to move. It can come out, like, ticking, come out like, you know, like twitching, whatever. But that's totally normal. And I wish somebody explained that to you so you wouldn't have been so scared. and then we talked about the serpent and we talked about the urging. I didn't tell him the baby stuff or the birth stuff, but it was just incredibly reassuring to have had that conversation. And then that was it, you know, Then I come home and I'm back to my life. And I don't feel like I went through 10 years of therapy in one night. I honest to God have no idea, you know, what I saw. Like, I mean, I know what I saw, but I mean, how does that connect to me right now? I don't know. Do I feel cured and healed and recovered? No. Do I feel like I gain insight from what I experienced? No. Other than maybe I have one question answered, but do I feel like I've got insight from it? No. And, and now, you know, it's been like a, I, don't know, a month and a half. And I just feel like I'm, going back into that place of, like, brokenness. Like, I don't know that anything can heal me or fix me or cure me or help me. And I don't feel like I'm in a better place for having gone to Peru to do ayahuasca. And so I'm sharing this experience with all the listeners, with all this detail as maybe a cautionary tale that, like, maybe the way I did it wasn't the right way to do it, or, I don't know, like, that maybe people need support or people need therapy or a therapist who is experienced in psychedelic assisted therapy to work with you. And, I'm not even sure I know what integration is and. Because I probably haven't done that anyway. That was my Peru ayahuasca experience. And will I do it again? I don't know. But am I interested in things now like MDMA and psilocybin? Absolutely. But I realize now if I do do psychedelics again, I definitely need to build a relationship with therapist who understands it and who works with it and who can help me navigate through some of the things that I experience.
>> Heather Hart: Can I put my therapist hat on for a second?
>> Myrna McCallum : Sure you can.
>> Heather Hart: I think there's so much that was given to in that journey. And from that journey you're still, maybe in this place of believing that that journey was going to be the healing ticket, but really what the healing ticket is going back into that content and understanding what little you needed and didn't receive. Safety, protection, comfort, you. Learning how to be with the parts of you that have experienced those horrendous things is what will heal you, right? Because even your, your feeling of death, like you're feeling, I'm going to die, I'm going to die. Like, that is probably an extremely young part of you that came into this world almost dying. Right? So then how do you reckon reconcile that with that little. With that little baby who instead of being welcomed into the world with love and care and attention, felt empty and a void. Right? Like, and I know that that exists in you because I've seen you with your daughter. Like, you are so loving. But I think learning where to put that love within yourself is that first integration step.
>> Myrna McCallum : Interesting. So I appreciate what you've said, and I would say, say to anyone listening, like, I think that is, like, what you're just hearing now is exactly why if you're thinking about doing psychedelic, any kind of psychedelics to help you heal things, this is why you want to have Therapists helping you through it, asking you questions, giving you their take on what you've experienced, giving you an interpretation that maybe hasn't come to mind for you already. And everything you just said, Heather, totally makes sense. Like, yes, Like, I think that's where the aha, moment maybe comes in, is now me having to reflect on my relationship to, you know, the void and to death and to, you know, like just the origins of the disconnection. And so. But you can't do that, folks, unless you actually have somebody who's going to walk with you through it. You can't do everything on your own. Which is really, I think, the big lesson for me because I'm so hyper independent, I think I can do it alone.
>> Heather Hart: I could do it. I don't need anyone.
>> Myrna McCallum : I could do it all by myself. But the reality is, and I know this because everyone on TikTok and Instagram says this, like, you don't heal alone. Like, you've got to heal. Like you all the real healing comes in community, in connection. And so that's my cautionary tale for. So what would you say, Heather, to people who are interested in learning a little bit more about psychedelic assisted therapy and, or finding a therapist who has this training, has this interest, like, where could they go, where could they begin to explore and find resources?
>> Heather Hart: I mean, maps.org is always a wonderful resource, to learn more. And they talk about all different kinds of medicines, whether we're talking psilocybin, ayahuasca, mdma. and as far as finding a really good therapist, I'm really biased with emdr. So finding a clinician who would work with, who has worked with EMDR for years and years and years. And is attachment based, right? Because everything we're talking about is attachment focused. so I know IFS is like the new hot therapeutic, right? Like, even life coaches are like, I do. Ifs. Like, no, there's a lot more to it than like a fucking 12 hour training online. so really understanding someone who can be a safe attachment, and that takes time. It's not like six months one and done. It's like, I mean, me and my therapist have worked together for like six years, right? Like, and we've reworked some huge trauma. But it took me the first two years to even trust her because I was so skeptical. I was very hyper independent. Like, what the is this gonna tell me about healing? Like, no, absolutely not, right? Like, I have it handled. I'm functional. So it took a long time for me to build that trust. So if someone doesn't feel like a good fit, like, trust that. But if someone feels like, okay, they keep handing the wand back to me in my journey, they're not telling me what to do, but they're holding space for my experience, like, that can be a really good inclination. and then I think, yeah, personality is important. I'm very direct, very assertive with my patients. So my clients are usually very, like, loud and they like that. And they are like, you know, we laugh together, we cry together. Like, we're very relational. Some people don't like that. Some people want just to be like, you know, more introspective, and that's okay. So allowing yourself to be in the therapeutic relationship in a way that feels safe is good. So, test them out. Psychology Today's like the Facebook of therapists. It's a good place to start. But, if you have a friend who sees a therapist and they've had a good experience, like, that's always a good place to kind of inquire. and then my therapist as well, lovely. But she. She's off limits, so. But she is in Seattle area. The Seattle School of Psychology has some really incredible therapists too. so, yeah,
>> Myrna McCallum : awesome. So you just have to look for them. You have to look for them and ask around and get recommendations. But otherwise, for the psychedelic assisted, therapists out there, go to maps.com and you'll find resources there that might help you.
>> Heather Hart: Yes, yeah, yeah. And the Fireside Project and the Fireside Resource.
>> Myrna McCallum : Okay, cool. I will include links to that in the show notes for this episode when it drops. Heather, this conversation was awesome. Thank you. And I want to say to folks listening, if you are coming to the Justice Trauma Conference, ah, at the Vancouver convention center from March 17 to 19, Heather's going to be there and she's going to be leading, ah, a session on psychedelic assisted therapy. So if you have questions for you or your community on how, this could help to heal, how psychedelics can help heal trauma, historical trauma, all the things. Heather will be there. so, yeah, consider coming to Vancouver and meeting Heather. Heather, thank you so much for this conversation and for listening to me and, sharing that insightful piece that I, haven't heard but definitely resonated. So thank you.
>> Heather Hart: Yes, yes, of course. And, thank you for sharing your journey and I believe that you can heal. Let's just stop looking for things to do it for you. You're enough.
>> Myrna McCallum : I love that you are enough. We are enough. For anyone else who's been looking outside of themselves. You aren't enough. Yeah, I think we're like a nation of self healers and we all need to come back to that. All right, my dear. All right. Thank you, everyone. Thanks, Heather.
>> Heather Hart: Bye.
>> Myrna McCallum : All right, that's my episode for today, folks. I. I sure hope you enjoyed this conversation as always. If you have any feedback, any comments, questions, you want to give me a rave review, just go to Apple Podcast, give me a review, leave me a rating. Same with Spotify. If you want to reach out to me, I'm at the til podcast on Twitter. You can find me on LinkedIn using my name and of course, Instagram at the Trauma Inform Lawyer. This episode was recorded on the unceded ancestral and traditional territory of the Tsleil Waututh people. All right, until next time, folks. Take care of yourselves.