This episode explores the following subject matter: Understanding genocide and its impacts on mental health, Colonial trauma and its intergenerational effects, Torture, humiliation, and brutality as mechanisms of psychological harm, The limits of Western individualistic approaches to trauma, Community as medicine: collective care and resilience, Liberation psychology as a framework for healing and resistance, The role of solidarity in addressing collective suffering, Revolutionary love as a practice of resistance and survival. Key Themes: Collective trauma vs. individual trauma, Structural violence and mental health, Dignity, identity, and survival under oppression, Healing in community. Notable Insights: Suffering, oppression and torture in Gaza cannot be separated from political reality Mental health frameworks must account for collective experiences and ongoing oppression—not just past events Collective healing practices are essential in contexts of mass trauma Solidarity is not symbolic—it has real psychological and material impact
In this powerful and unflinching conversation, Dr. Samah Jabr explains the psychological realities of Palestinian life under occupation in Gaza. We move beyond headlines to examine the lived experience of genocide, collective trauma, and the systematic use of brutality, torture, and humiliation as tools of control.
Dr. Jabr offers a deeply grounded analysis of colonial trauma—how it embeds itself not only in individuals, but in families, communities, and generations. Together, we unpack the psychological impact of ongoing violence, the erosion of dignity, and the ways in which survival itself becomes an act of resistance.
Yet this conversation is not only about harm—it is also about healing. We explore community as medicine, the role of collective care, and the power of solidarity across movements. Drawing on liberation psychology, Dr. Jabr reframes mental health beyond individual pathology, calling us toward a more political, relational, and justice-oriented understanding of healing. At its core, this episode is an invitation to witness, to feel, and to consider what revolutionary love looks like in the face of trauma.
Resources & Further Reading:
You can learn more about Dr. Jabr here: https://drsamahjabr.com/
Behind the Frontlines: Tales of Resistance and Resilience in Palestine by Dr. Samah Jabr
Content Note:
This episode includes discussion of genocide, war, torture, and systemic violence. Please listen with care.
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>>Myrna McCallum: Hi, folks. Can you believe that we are at season four of the Trauma Informed Lawyer podcast? I certainly cannot believe it and I appreciate all of you for sticking with me through all of it and the delays and dropping episodes. I promise this season I'm going to be giving you a lot of content and on a more regular, predictable basis. I want to say that since I started this podcast, I don't know how long ago now, years ago, my evolution and my education has certainly, like, increased least. And I believe that becoming trauma informed in any respect is just the baseline, the bare minimum that we can do. The work for us is to become trauma responsive, culturally responsive, to become just and equitable, and to center humanity and integrity in all of the work that we do. In the spirit of that, the episodes, the conversations that are coming forward are intended to reflect that. And as I have come to learn, and probably you, the listener on understand, this conversation isn't just for lawyers and judges and law enforcement, like I, my initial intended audience. It has, like, spanned the globe, from lawyers to leaders to advocates, activists, practitioners, physicians, politicians. So many people listen to this content. Why? Because we are all dealing with human beings and all human beings are experiencing some degree of suffering, including ourselves. And so the work for us is to recognize that in each other, adapt and adjust accordingly so we do no further harm.
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Last week I had the great privilege to be in conversation with Dr. Samah Jabr. She was one of the presenters at my recent conference, Justice as Trauma. We talked about collective healing, community as medicine, solidarity, colonial trauma, so many things. And she brought the perspective of her people. She is Palestinian, she's a psychiatrist. She has lived and worked in Gaza. And of course I brought my own lived experience as an indigenous woman living in Canada. And what I want to say is that this conversation is one of the most profound, impactful, incredible conversations I've had with anybody and I'm really pleased to be able to share it with you. I just want to give you a heads up as well that this episode includes discussion of genocide or torture and violence. So please listen with care. Hi there, Dr. Samah Jabr. Thank you for joining me on the Trauma Informed Lawyer podcast. It's a real pleasure to have you here in conversation with me today.
>>Dr. Samah Jabr: Thank you very much for the invitation. Happy to be with you today.
>>Myrna McCallum : I came to know about your work through my daughter who went to an event in Costa Rica last year. I believe you were. the intention was for you to present there, but there were some travel issues and then you presented virtually, however, my daughter Said the impact was really profound having you there, in this virtual space. And then when we're planning Justice's Trauma here in Vancouver, which just took place a couple weeks ago, she said, we have to bring, we have to bring you here. And we made every attempt to do so. However, around the time of, like, travel, everything became so uncertain in the world and flights were canceled and all the chaos, we just, like, overwhelmed travel plans, the best travel plan. So, I'm really happy that you were able to still join us virtually. Like I said just a few minutes ago, before we started recording, your contributions to the Justice's Trauma Summit was so profound and so integral to the success and the experience, the positive experience that people had. And I just want to thank you for, like, your work, your voice and your presence.
>>Dr. Samah Jabr: Thank you very much. This is very meaningful to me, especially because we know that, it's not, for granted for Palestinians to move to travel, to contribute effectively, to, the creation of knowledge, in our field in health and mental health. So the fact that I can still do it even though I'm in Jerusalem, ah, and I can do it online, this is very meaningful to me.
>>Myrna McCallum : You got a standing ovation after your presentation, and my daughter was like, I've never seen that before. For a virtual presenter to get a standing ovation. I hope you were able to take in all of the love that everybody was, like, sending you with their applause.
>>Dr. Samah Jabr: I was humbled and grateful at the same time. I received some emails from people after the event, who expressed their appreciation, and some of them were curious about my work, and they wanted to, call for, to invite me for future, cooperation.
>>Myrna McCallum : Wonderful. The conversations that we had around collective healing and liberation and what justice requires are critical conversations right now, given the world that we live in. I'm curious about what your view is on. Why is collective healing something that we need to be thinking about, like, across the globe?
>>Dr. Samah Jabr: I'll speak about this, but before that, let me say that creating a conference with the theme of, the conference that you invited to is a very precious opportunity for those of us who feel marginalized and alone in mainstream institutions when we meet together and talk about radical hope, collective healing, sumud versus resilience, decolonial practice in mental health. this creates bonding and connection, and it liberates us from, a perceived, feeling of loneliness or isolation. So it has a very important, empowering effect, for those who participate. Now, having said that, let me answer your question about collective Healing why we need collective healing. I come from Jerusalem, Palestine, where trauma is colonial trauma and colonial trauma is collective. It's historical, chronic, intentional. And you can survive as an individual, disconnected from your community. In such a situation, if you despise your community, if you, align, with the interests of the colonial group, if you serve them, if you collaborate with them, you can survive as an individual. You can physically, survive. But the culture, the history, the memory, are at stake and they are damaged. so we see that colonial trauma not only targets individuals, masses of individuals, but also it damages the bones between members of the community. And Western psychiatry, which. And Western mental health, which developed in situations, where there is peace and tranquility, is more interested in the individual and what happens, within the individual and less interested in, healing the. The bonds between members of the community. So I think that, from my positionality as a Palestinian psychiatrist, working, with traumatized communities, displaced people, I understand that working with the individual is not sufficient. There will be a very important, aspect of the damage that will be neglected if we only practice, individual Western psychiatry. So we need to create opportunities to help people trust each other, to help people work collectively, to help people support each other. not only depend on the, health worker or the psychiatrist, to provide them with support, but, they are the experts in their own trauma, in their own pain, and they have a lot of wisdom and they can support each other. So our work, mental health professionals, becomes, as facilitators for this organic process. we allow it to happen. We create the conditions, we support the people, and we should be ready to learn from their experience and the work that they are doing together. The situation in Gaza taught us a lot. We saw the community, trying to ease the pain and suffering. We saw, some individuals who are perceived as role models by the community, putting themselves in the service of others. So there is a lot to learn from, Gaza and from the Palestinian experience. Ah. And I think, people who experienced traumatic history and, violence that is structural, they would appreciate that aspect of healing.
>>Myrna McCallum : Definitely. And I want to say, as I'm listening to you speak, I'm thinking about, my own community. So I know that you speak extensively on the Palestinian experience, what's happening in Gaza. And when I listen to you at the conference, I'm an Indigenous woman living in Canada. A lot of, like, our people, people were decimate, exterminated by, the English, the French, when they came and they settled here. I mean, we now make up less than 5% of the population. There really. There was a, A An effort to exterminate us. And, and some still say that the Indian act, which is law here in Canada, is still one way in which the Canadian government is working to extermin of people. And as I listened to you presenting, I saw a lot of parallels between, between the Palestinian experience and the Indigenous experience in Canada. And I, I really think that anywhere in the world where colonial trauma has impacted people or is still alive and well, there's a lot of parallels. And what I want to ask, and this might be an unpopular, topic to address, but it's something that's coming up right now is that even though we know community is medicine, and I heard you present about that, and I want to talk to you a little bit more about how community becomes medicine. I do think it's important to acknowledge that not all community members, in the face of. Of trauma, choose to become healers and helpers. Like you just said, sometimes the oppressed become the oppressor. And that was really evident in a lot of our communities here. After the residential school system, what happened was a lot of the children who were abused in these schools went on and became educators and administrators in these schools and also became abusers themselves. And what I want to know from you is not expecting that you have all the answers, but how do we as community grapple with that? I mean, here we, we. I hear it framed a lot as like lateral violence of protecting abusers and abusive practices and. And also, you know, just the oppressed becoming the oppressor. How, how do you still, as a community focus on the medicine and the healing that can happen while also having to acknowledge the reality that some people who have been harmed become the ones who cause harm?
>>Dr. Samah Jabr: I, I think, There is a wide spectrum of reactions, to the experience of collective structural trauma. Ah. And while some people resist and show heroic examples, others might try to assimilate and get alienated from the community. And others, become fascinated with the oppressor, with the aggressor. They identify with the aggressor and become subservient to aggressors. So I borrow some concepts from Latin American movement of liberation psychology. Important lessons that can help us in the Palestinian reality and I think in similar realities of, Indigenous people of oppressed nations. So, for example, conscientization, the importance of, raising political awareness among members in the community. Paulo Freire spoke about, dialoguing the importance of Creating spaces for people from the oppressed group with their different reactions to the reality, to sit together and dialogue. He warns from using the tools of the oppressors. political awareness can help people understand that some of them become subservient, become contractors, ah for the oppressors. And there is, there are psychological mechanisms that take place and make people internalize a sense of collective inferiority and Admiration for the victorious oppressor. So dialoguing, conscientization, creating healing spaces, listening groups, having members in the community who can like play role models and affirm the identity of the people who are attacked in their culture, in their language, in their value system. I think that This will help people maintain the bonds of the community and challenge the situation that tries to inflict a sense of inferiority among oppressed groups. So understanding the mechanisms is very important and we need to educate actively members of the oppressed community about these mechanisms and their impact on the people so that they will be liberated from its effect on them. Because when we don't have political consciousness, political awareness, when we don't challenge the ideology of the oppressor that is imposed on us, it is. Some people can figure it on their own and many others will just integrate the ideology of the oppressor on them, this imposition. And they will become passive. Passive, colonized oppressed people who lose their subjectivity and their capacity to psychologically and intellectually resist the oppression.
>>Myrna McCallum : Okay, so I'm hearing, I'm hearing you and the bonds of community. So earlier I heard you say like being like in a collective and coming into community is really important. Particularly you know, we live in a world that is hyper individualistic and a lot of focus always on the individual, the individual to do the thing. But you know like I, I'm. I come from the legal field and so I don't think we talk enough about like systems change. How do we create, like how do we change the structure? Structure and the structure is made up of individuals. And I, that's one of the reasons why I create these educational events is to create community because I believe that more voices are more powerful than the single voice. And then also I want to hopefully inspire a ah, shared responsibility and accountability among the people who uphold these systems. That it's on us to, to make the change that. To be the change but also to make the change that we're looking for. And Dr. Dr. Jabbar, I don't know if you heard Esther Arma, but she presented on emotional justice. One of the things that she said was isolation is the death of liberation. And I wonder how do you feel about that when you hear.
>>Dr. Samah Jabr: Of course. Yeah, yeah. I think it's easier to oppress people if they are not connected, with groups. And this is what happens to many people, in their. In. In mainstream institutions. They feel isolated, lonely. it's difficult to connect with others and challenge the system. so I think it's very important to create the conditions that will support people, network with others, who have a similar experience in order to transform and challenge the status quo. and that's also an integral aspect of the liberation psychology, theory and practice that comes from Latin America. It's about having awareness of how the structure and the system impacts the individual and the psychology of the individual
>>Dr. Samah Jabr: maintaining and supporting the agency of individuals and the collective in order to change, to challenge the structure and the conditions that create the suffering. This is very relevant to the Palestinian reality because, We cannot talk. When we talk about. When I assess someone as suffering from psychiatric symptoms. It's not sufficient to take into consideration the biopsychosocial. But we need to understand how, how the political situation is impacting the life and the livelihood of this person. And how can we connect these women, for example, who are mothers of young people who were disappearing individuals for example, or people who were killed due to political violence. How can we connect them together so that they create a community, support each other? there are, for example, in Palestine there are groups for parents whose children were killed and their bodies were abducted and frozen by the Israelis to exchange. So there is. They created a movement, they mobilize in order to create pressure to get back the bodies, the frozen bodies of their children. torture is a big issue in the Palestinian experience. Political detention is very common. It touches 20% of the Palestinian population. And torture is commonplace. So the role of a mental health professional is not only to treat the pathological symptoms of sleeplessness, of ptsd, of nightmares, hypervigilance. We do that, we treat, but also we document and we use the documentation for advocacy for exposing the torturers in the hope that this professional documentation, which is made in collaboration between lawyers and mental health professionals, would go to the court, would go to the icc, for example, and expose the practice of torture and contribute to the redress of certain individuals. So that's an example of how we use our professional skills to Create transformation, to challenge the situation, not only to treat the symptoms of the individual. And this can be called as critical human rights based approach to mental health, which is not only about treatment but about the emphasis and the commitment, the emphasis of, and the commitment to human rights. And we can also think critically of human rights because they pretend to be universal, but we understand that they are not applied to people in different parts of the world equally. So we adopt a critical human rights based approach to our practice in mental health. And we treat, we document and we use our documentation for advocacy and to challenge impunity and call for accountability.
>>Myrna McCallum : I really like that approach for a lot of reasons. I've been somebody who has been outspoken and a proponent of lawyers and mental health workers collaborating, being partners. I'm, I'm of the view that in any firms that are doing a lot of litigation around subject matter that is traumatic, that they should have an in house mental health worker who doesn't just work with the lawyers, but also works to prepare witnesses and victims of all these terrible crimes for what they're going to endure in a trial. For example, courtrooms are not, are not designed to be trauma informed or trauma responsive. They're not designed to, to recognize the humanity in people, their adversarial spaces which are sometimes abused by lawyers. And and oftentimes what you have, and I know you know this, people will leave a courtroom sharing an experience of being harmed even worse than the original harm or violence or victimization that brought them to the courtroom to begin with. And for that reason, and that reason alone, I do think that it is in the best interest. Maybe it's an ethical, it's an ethical obligation, a moral obligation to, for lawyers and judges and others who work in these spaces to become educated in trauma. It's not just for mental health people to understand trauma and to be able to work with it. I know you've talked a little bit about trauma informed education and witnessing, and I want to talk a little bit about that. And before I do, I also want to thank you for giving us an extra explanation about liberation psychology. Because my particular audience, who maybe predominantly come from the legal world or justice world, aren't always familiar with some of these terms, but I appreciate that. So let's talk a little bit about like as I'm thinking about bonds and community and solidarity. What, what impact or power or role does witnessing play for all of us, whether we're lawyers or we're physicians or we're psychiatrists, were educators. What Obligation do we have to witness? And what does that mean?
>>Dr. Samah Jabr: let me start, from the clinic. When we work with an individual who went through a traumatic experience, we cannot reverse what happened to that person. But just to listen, to sit with that person and listen to her, him, acknowledge, validate, provide empathy, provide witnessing, accompany, this person. These efforts would mitigate the impact of trauma, would. Would diminish the negative effects on that person. And we know the contrary, that when the trauma of a person is not acknowledged, is not seen, is not validated, this makes, the trauma effects multiply. And the same goes for a nation, for a community. And usually traumatized communities are overwhelmed with the level of crimes, the pile of crimes that are committed against them. You know this from the experiences of indigenous nations. I know this from the experiences of Palestinians. We This was live streamed in Gaza over the past two, three years. The crimes pile. And there is. They have, they happen with a very high intensity. And the mind of one person cannot capture the whole picture. So, People become confused and our memory becomes fragmented. Especially because this is not the story of one individual or one family that was exposed to a series of crimes and traumatic conditions. This is happening everywhere to you, to your family members, to your friends, to your colleagues, to the society, to the community, to the language, to the value system, to the representation of your people. So testimonial testimony and witnessing in such condition, it is not only to facilitate for the person to narrate what happened to him, but to bring together different members of the community to share what happened to them. And with that they can put together different pieces of the puzzle that will collect the full image of what happened to that group of people. Because usually the most powerful, the criminals, they do the crimes and they narrate it. They write the history. And the history of traumatized people is neglected, negated, ignored, fragmented. When documented in literature, we say, oh, this is gray, science. This is not real. And I think witnessing and testimony and accompaniment will help traumatized people to put. To pull together their history, their micro stories, their oral history, and document what happened to them. And this thing is not only important for justice and for history, it is important for healing, for therapy. Because when people cannot tell a story of what happened to them, the story keeps telling itself by symptoms, by creating symptoms. But when people sit together and compose the different parts of the story, then. And when they know it, when they recognize what happened, this is a way to To silence the psychological, Emotional behavioral symptoms that we call traumatic symptoms, PTSD symptoms.
>>Myrna McCallum : Wow. So that, I mean you just answered several questions I had about why storytelling is powerful, why it's important to tell our stories, write our stories, share these stories. And then I was thinking about identity. Like one of the things that I did at this conference and the last one, was I had a panel of indigenous women sharing their experiences, their work, their voices. Because at least here in Canada and ah, in the United States, Indigenous like there is a, there is this missing and murdered Indigenous women. Women thing that has been happening for a long time. And what it has signaled I would say to Canadians and Americans is that indigenous women are disposable. That we are easy targets, that we nobody will look for us. And it's really horrific and it really, it impacts the way we see ourselves because of the way the media portrays us as disposable, vulnerable, living high risk lifestyles which all of it is so misleading and not correct. And I was curious looking at media and how Palestinians are portrayed, which doesn't ever tell the full picture, especially here in the Western world. I am curious about your perspective on reclaiming identity and why it's important to maybe rail against the narrative that somebody else is telling about who you are and who your people are and what value you have or don't have.
>>Dr. Samah Jabr: I think that this what you describe is the, the practice against many colonized oppressed nations. But we saw an outstanding example in Palestine and Gaza recently where international media was not allowed to go to the war zone to report on the experiences of Palestinians. And almost every Palestinian journalist was targeted. Hundreds were killed, many were arrested, others were threatened. Some were forced to leave. Ah so they were silenced. And the few international journalists who managed to enter, they, they entered on Israeli tanks, they entered Gaza on Israeli tanks. And the reports were checked by the Israeli occupation forces before they were broadcasted. And they were narrating, echoing, parroting the Israeli narrative on what happened. And we see that being repeated now in Lebanon where journalists are being killed and targeted. and this is part of. Attacking of epistemicide, killing the knowledge and the information that comes from and about people. And with that you can create caricatural description, representation of these people attacking their culture, their identity, m vilifying them in a cartoonist way. And this has been happening to many nations. Edward Said, the well known Palestinian American intellectual, he spoke about Orientalism. And we see that there is a special propaganda and misrepresentation created for Palestinians in particular as either terrorists or as mentally disturbed people. in reaction to that, we see many individual Palestinians who take their mobiles and they become citizen journalists. They didn't go to journalism school. Some of them are adolescents. Some of them have not finished high school. we see many Palestinian, ordinary people who try to theorize, intellectualize about the reality. They use poetry, they use arts, they use singing, in order to reclaim their identity, and, affirm the value system of the Palestinian people.
>>Myrna McCallum : Yes. I mean, I think that's a universal. That's a universal response in so many. So many cultures is to use, like, art and music and movement to tell a story when people can't find the words or the words aren't enough. And I think that that's incredibly powerful. I want to ask you, I mean, so many questions around justice. But before we do that, you said something in the presentation that you gave about humiliation and the. The DSM being really limited. And. And you put the words humiliation and trauma together. And that really stopped me, like, right away, because I don't know how many listeners listening to this conversation are aware. But, you know, when you talk about torture, I see so much like. I see parallels in these residential schools and boarding schools, like the nuns and the priests use torture, against children. And this has been evidenced by, you know, finding things like electric chairs in these schools and other tools of torture that I won't go into because it's just too horrific. And humiliation was also a tool that was used to dehumanize these children and traumatize these children who then became adults. And too many perpetuated those practices. But can you say a little bit more about how humiliation is a form of trauma and why that is? So, like, that's something that we should be thinking about when we're having conversations around trauma.
Dr. Samah Jabr: Yeah. This is, again, something that I learned from the patients. I, work, intensively with the victims of torture. And usually the men and women that I see, they care less about the fractured ribs. They don't talk much about this. What hurts them the most are experiences of humiliation. So, for example, a man who presented with sexual dysfunction to my clinic, he told me much later in therapy when we developed a, sufficient trust in the relationship so that he can bring the most difficult experiences of him. He said that he started suffering from his sexual dysfunction following an incident in which he was forced by the soldiers to insult the women in his life. His wife, his mother, his sister. He was divulging their names and using filthy insults. He was dictated by the soldiers to say certain words against them. And this was months ago. But since that moment he developed a sexual dysfunction and breathlessness and panic attacks. So also I, I can bring another example of a woman in prison. she, she was beaten, she was threatened, but a, at a certain point she asked for sanitary pads and they wouldn't give her sanitary pads unless she kisses the Israeli flag or dances to Israeli national music. So those are experiences of humiliation that leave a long lasting impact on people because people are made to to do something against their ideology. And our colleagues in, at Birzait University published some, some, some research suggesting that trauma is the. Sorry, humiliation is the most common trauma in the Palestinian experience and humiliation is not considered traumatic in the DSM definition of trauma. The DSM definition of trauma speaks about physical integrity, injury or a threat of injury or sexual violence. But they don't consider experiences of humiliation that don't injure you physically as traumatic experiences. But we have a different understanding in our clinical experience in Palestine. and also we developed a special intervention, psychological intervention for experiences of humiliation, which helps the victims who went through this experience to mentalize the intention and motivation of those who inflicted degradation and humiliation on them. And if they can do that, they will start developing less pathological symptoms in reaction to these experiences. So it's very important we see I think what I observed more recently, over the past, over the period of intensification genocide in Gaza and intensification of violence in the west bank and Jerusalem. We observed that Israelis also. Are interested in spreading broadcasting images of humiliation. They humiliate people and they don't fear the camera. They record actions like peeing soldiers, peeing at a Palestinian or spitting at Palestinians. there are many reports, many images and I think that they are done with a political, they are being broadcasted and diffused with a political interest to make every Palestinian share part of that humiliation. If you notice the images that come from Israeli prison system, the Palestinians are not allowed to walk like erected men. They bow, they made them to bow with their heads on the floor like animals or they are on their knees. They always bring their images on their knees or lying down. There are reports of using military dogs to sexually assault ah and rape Palestinians or they sexually assault people with baseball sticks. That also is not only sexual violence but also to have to train dogs to do this kind of action. Ah has a Humiliation component in it. So it's very difficult. And I think that these images, they do a lot of harm for human dignity in general. But Palestinians, are very affected by these images. Images of Palestine naked Palestinian men, coming from Gaza, arrested in Gaza in masses. Those are very, very common. And media doesn't react. They don't try to control, ah, these images and limit their impact on people.
>>Myrna McCallum : Well, speaking of impact on people, I'm curious about, like, I'm hearing what you're saying. I'm taking it in and I, I follow some folks on, like Physicians Against Genocide on Instagram, and I do see images of some pretty brutal, horrific acts of violence and humiliation, some of which have echoed stories I've heard from survivors of residential school. because I, for a period of time during my, this legal career that I've had, I was an adjudicator. So I would travel and I would listen to stories of people's residential school experiences directly from the survivors. And my job was to compensate people according, to the level of harm they experienced, which in itself was so harmful for me to do as somebody who also went to residential schools for somebody who's also indigenous. Because how do you put a dollar value on the rape of a child, for example, or how do you put a dollar value on, you know, you're talking about the use of animals to harm, Harm people. for us, and I'm sure for many, like, that goes against so many of our natural laws and our belief systems, and yet that those things were also used in residential school schools. And people don't. Don't. And when I say people, I mean Canadians, a lot of Canadians deny when, when survivors talk about, torture and the abuses they experienced and the fact that murders occurred in these schools and people will deny it, they will say, no, that never happened. That never happened. And, and so, I want to know from you just your thoughts on what the, what do you see the impact being for, you know, for those of us who are so far removed, I guess, like, I use that in like quotes. Far removed from some of these worlds, whether it's the Sudan, the Congo, Gaza. and we're seeing images and we're just kind of scroll past it, whether it's on Tick Tock or Instagram, maybe we become desensitized. Oh, like it, it's become normalized to be witnessing. And it, it, I think some people maybe even see it as a, as a dramatic film. It's not reality. And yet it is the reality of so many people. And how do we, as the observer or the witnesser, so far away, stay connected to our own humanity as we're observing the dehumanization of other people?
>>Dr. Samah Jabr: Difficult to answer this question, but I think there is something about the world order that allows people to stay in their psychotic denial and dissociative states, far away from the reality of the world. the politics, the high tech companies, mainstream media. This order of the world make people look at the tragedies, the very real tragedies that are lives streamed in different parts of the world as if they are fiction. As if they are fiction. And if they get overwhelmed with it, they can just dissociate, deny, say it doesn't take place or use rationalization. Yeah, but those people are very bad people. They are terrorists. That's why it's okay to see them naked and to see them bowing like animals, because they are vilified. And I think that the reality of the world and the lack of reaction from the international community is damaging the levels of human empathy. And when we are exposed to these things and we can do nothing about it, so we deny and dissociate, then we lose a, ah, an integral part of what makes us human beings. Empathy. We lose empathy. And a world where there is no know empathy is a very dangerous world. And we see that with the lack of empathy and the betrayal of international law and universal human rights, the what, what happened to Palestinians is just being repeated in other parts of the world. You mentioned Sudan and Congo. Now we see Lebanon, Iran. And there is always a pretext to to make this happen and to inject people in the west with anesthesia in order to stop them from reacting to this, telling them that these people are evil people, they are the bad guys. and we know the influence of media. We know the influence of media. If you watch a movie, the movie will make you empathize with the cowboy and dislike the native. And this is the reality of our world is being portrayed like this Hollywood, Hollywood movie, movie that makes people empathize with the cowboys.
>>Myrna McCallum : I guess this is one of the reasons why storytelling and dominating the narrative is so powerful. Because if you frame it a certain kind of way, then maybe you convince people like that these, there's good and bad and these folks are good and these ones are bad. And so like, as I'm, as I'm reflecting on our conversation, I just can't help but like come back to thinking about how, how important it is to Tell stories, to publish stories, to write stories. I know that you have a book out there that is sharing stories of, Palestinian experiences within the storytelling practice. Folks can reclaim their identity. They, they can redefine, like, what their experience is, maybe even, like, liberate themselves to some extent. And so one of the things I struggle with, I have to say, as an Indigenous lawyer, is I will get a lot of non indigenous people, largely white people, coming to me to say, how do we be better allies? How do we, you know, do do this? Like, how do we be in solidarity with the indigenous structure, struggle? And I often kind of resist that because I don't think it's for me to tell you how to be a better person or how to be a better witness or a better whatever. One of the ways I historically have tried to do that, I've tried to do it in that I'm like, become educated in trauma. That's why I started the Trauma Informed Lawyer podcast. That's why I started to educate judges and lawyers about trauma, even in my limited ability to do so. Because I am not a psychologist, I'm not a psych, I'm just a lawyer who's been traumatized by my childhood experiences, who's perpetuated trauma in the courtroom as a litigator, and who has worked with my own people, who have really educated me and how trauma presents itself. And so I was really convinced for a long time, and now I guess I'm not convinced anymore. But I really thought if I could, if I could reconnect some people back to their own humanity, they would see the humanity in us as Indigenous people in the other, right? Like, if I could reconnect them to their humanity, they would see us like they've never seen us before. And that's not working. It's not working. It seems to me dehumanization of people seems to be the prevailing thing that is driving algorithms and views and communications and system sense. So it's a heavy question, but, like, what is the recipe for success in, In a reality, in an environment, a global environment like this?
>>Dr. Samah Jabr: Networking is very important. mobilization is not sufficient. We need organization also, and a strategy. I think it is important also to connect, connect with Indigenous people at a global level. You know, it's easy now to go for, a small community of Indigenous people in the U.S. in Canada, in Australia, and say, how can we, in solidarity, how can we help you? It's easy to ask this question, but this offer is not genuine. if people ask what they can do about the indigenous people of new continents, when they see what is acts of genocide being made in different parts of the world. And ah, they say nothing about it. They wait for Palestinians to be, to disappear. And then I just imagine that if someone is waiting for a hundred years from now to ask us this question, it is now that people can do something about it. So I would ask this person, what do they do about the current risks and current dangers of genocide and eradication and nihilistic political plans against other people in the world. And if they do nothing about it, then the question about what they can do with you is not a very genuine question. So I think, the way I view the world is that colonialism and imperialism is a global problem. And you don't need to be in a colonized land in order to take action against it. You can reach it wherever it is in your country, against your government. You can challenge how they support colonialism, imperialism and the subjugation of other nations. So with all respect to people who take the boats to come to the shores of Gaza with the Sumud flotilla and all these trips, it is appreciated, but I think you can stay where you are and challenge your government if your government supports, provides military support or economic support to the Israeli regime that is implementing atrocity and violence and genocide. So there is a lot that can be done where people are. And it is an unfair question to ask us what can you do? Because we don't know of your capacity and your network and your possibilities. A lot needs to be done. A lot. So tell us about your conditions, about your network. You are the expert in that. You know what we need? We need, we need support, solidarity, liberation. We need you to challenge, global systems of colonialism, of racism that generates this kind of suffering. But every person is aware of their capacity and their networks and they, they need to design the plan that works best for them.
>>Myrna McCallum : Yeah, I appreciate that response. And I was thinking about a message that I conveyed at this conference, which was stop asking people how we can help. Help. Just offer, offer. Like just do something, do something, do something. because it's really, for me, it's, it's similar to, you know, walking the streets and seeing somebody without food and saying, are you hungry? Of course they're hungry. They have no food. Or seeing somebody who has no jacket and it's raining or it's cold and saying, oh, do you need a warm coat? Yeah, of course they do. Of course they do. So don't ask the qu don't ask, how can we help? Just help knowing what you have. Help how you can. And, don't ask how, how can we do it? Because I, I really think, you know, one of the conversations that was coming up at the conference in many different sessions, was the practice of, like, bypassing or emotional bypassing. But, like, the whole way in which, like, like, oh, I offer to help. So, like, I've done my duty. I've asked how can I be, in solidarity with you? Or how do I be a good ally? Or how do I support you? So, you know, I asked the question, and somebody didn't have a full answer. But, you know, I've done my bit by asking the question. And it's to those people that I'm like, stop asking the question and just do the thing.
>>Dr. Samah Jabr: Yeah. Yeah.
>>Myrna McCallum : Anyway, this conversation, I think, could go on for a long time. I want to kind of leave on a more positive note. If we're talking about, like, lessons of humanity for ourselves, for our communities, what would you say are maybe four key ingredients to either re. Reignite, ourselves with, like, love and liberation, to connect back to, like, our own humanity? What are, what are some key ingredients? If that was like a recipe,
>>Dr. Samah Jabr: I, I, of course this will be influenced by my personal biases. for me, I think it is. Everything is designed to make us lose our humanity. And we need to not allow this to happen. So how it's very important to maintain, Protect our humanity, express our humanity, avoid using the tools of the oppressor. And find ways to express empathy to other people. Even though we were painfully deprived of, sufficient empathy to prevent all the horrors that happened to us. And by us, I don't mean only Palestinians. Also indigenous people in the world, black people, who lived the black. The. The. Who lived the. The history in, the history of slavery. agency is another important factor. Oppression, oppressive system, colonialism has the intention of damaging, our agency, our capacity to make choices. So we need to be very creative, to find ways, symbolic ways, sometimes imaginary ways to express our agency. And as you mentioned, Native nations produce a lot of art, a lot of songs, because it's full of symbolic things, because our experiences are unspeakable. And also we are trying to live and heal in situations where there is no safety. And symbolic expressions provide us with some safety when we cannot say things fully in language. So, those are important ways to express agencies. It's important also to network with other people. Not only to mobilize, not only to express the common pain, but also to strategize and organize with the objective of transforming the political reality that is, imposing oppression on us. So mobilization, strategizing are important elements. And I think we need a lot of revolutionary love in order to be able to do all, all of the above. There is something about, a Western colonial mindset that make people think of romantic love as the prototypal form of love. But there are many different forms of love and one of them is revolutionary love. The love among those people who want to put their human capacity, human energy, human ah, effort to change the conditions that damage the humanity of the oppressed, but also the humanity of the oppressor. So we need a lot of revolutionary love, a lot of revolutionary love to counteract oppression.
>>Myrna McCallum : That's such a good answer. And for folks who are listening, particularly those in like, legal and justice fields who are like, love has no place injustice. I think, like, nothing could be further from the truth. And I really thank you, Dr. Samah Jabr, for this conversation. it's been so good for me and I know the listeners, are going to be reflecting on this one for a long time. Thank you so much.
>>Dr. Samah Jabr: Thank you very much. Thank you.