Chantel Sparklingeyes offers criminal court actors advice on how to decolonize the unjust system known for its dehumanizing practices when working with Indigenous people as victims, survivors, offenders and witnesses.
Chantel Sparklingeyes offers criminal court actors advice on how to decolonize the unjust legal system known for its dehumanizing practices when working with Indigenous people as victims, survivors, offenders and witnesses. CW: This talk covers subjects of sexual abuse, IPV and intergenerational trauma.
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>> Myrna McCallum : I'm Myrna McCallum, Metis Cree lawyer and passionate promoter of Trauma informed layering. Welcome back to the Trauma Informed Lawyer Podcast. As you know, I believe that law schools and bar courses are missing a critical competency requirement in their curriculum. Trauma Informed Lawyering. Becoming a Trauma Informed lawyer will, among other things, challenge you to critically reflect on your personal behaviors, beliefs and biases, call on you to positively transform the way you approach advocacy, guide your practice to avoid doing further harm to others, and ask that you commit to remaining open to learn new and old knowledge you didn't know you needed before beginning your career. Your education starts right here, right now. Transcripts for season two have been generously sponsored by the BC Law Foundation.
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>> Myrna McCallum : Chantelle Sparkling Eyes. So good to meet you. And, oh, my God, is your name ever beautiful. Oh, my God. Okay. I'm so happy to have you here today, talking with me about some of your experiences, not only as a Metis woman who has survived a lot, had to overcome a lot that a lot of us, as I think Indigenous women across this country and even North America are really, familiar with, but also to hear from you how it is that we can do better as lawyers and judges and police officers who work within a system that doesn't always deliver justice, for Metis women, for Indigenous women. And I'm just so excited to have this conversation with you today. So welcome. Welcome to the Trauma Informed Lawyer Podcast. So tell us, Tell all of the listeners a little bit about who you are, where you come from, all of the four, one, one on Chantelle Sparkling Eyes. Just love your name. I'm gonna. I'm just gonna say your name together throughout this entire conversation because I can't just say Chantelle.
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: I love that. Well, thank you so much, Myrna, for having me on and for, you know, giving me the platform m to kind of share my experiences and, my profession and what I'm doing in my life to, support all of, you know, not just Metis women, but Indigenous women across Alberta. so my name is Chantelle Sparkling Eyes. my maiden name is Boucher. I am from, northern Alberta, Lacla Bish. I belong to Metis nation of Alberta Region 1. I am married to a First Nations man. We have three children. I am a team lead to a family violence program in my community. I'm also a survivor of a lot of different types of abuse in my life. physical, emotional, sexual, verbal. and I've kind of come full circle and am able to Provide support to people who, you know, I was, I once was. And I'm honored to be able to walk in healing with so many different people. yeah, I'm just so excited to be here and be a part of this.
>> Myrna McCallum : Well, I am so happy to have you here. I want to just, you know, honor all of the lived experience that you bring to this conversation. And I definitely, was very, hesitant to actually explore this subject with a survivor because of the trauma that, might still be working on somebody's spirit and heart and all of that. And so just the listeners are aware I did my due diligence. We had a conversation before this. And one of the reasons why I felt really comfortable bringing Chantelle on the show was because of her commitment and active work towards healing and overcoming. Because it sounded, because it was clear to me in our conversation that the traumas of your life have not defined you. And in fact, you have found ways to build, yourself up in spite of those experiences and maybe even because of those experiences. And you are not just actively healing yourself and your family, but you are helping others who go through traumatic experiences now. So tell our listeners a little bit about your, like, the work that you're doing, the education you're working on. We want to know.
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: So I run a family violence program that provides educational support groups for men and women whose lives are impacted by family violence. intimate partner violence, domestic abuse, whatever you want to call it, it's. It's violence. And, I have a social work background. I'm currently. I have a diploma in social work completed. And I'm currently in my third year of my indigenous Bachelor of social Work degree. through the University of Bluequills in St. Paul. I attend a First Nations school that, what used to be a residential school. And so it's very impactful to me to know the history there and to be able to take a place that was meant to, you know, remove the culture from indigenous people and, be able to have an indigenized education base there. And so I'm m. Very blessed to have this opportunity. And, I'm doing really well in school. My grades are pretty good. Not to toot my own horn, but,
>> Myrna McCallum : Nothing wrong with tooting your own horn. I think we need to do that more often and let all the young ones know coming up behind us that that's totally okay to do that.
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: Absolutely. And you know, when you put the work in and you experience the results, it's. It's one of the best feelings in the world because nothing worth having is going to be easy to come by. It's always going to take, you know, work and effort. And, I. It is because of my life experience that brought me down the path of the education that I chose. I really do often say that if I wouldn't have went into social work, I definitely would have went into law. I think it's because I can argue my point on any platform. I don't know if that's the Metis spirit in me or if it's the strong women who have raised me, but definitely a gift that I have. and so I lived in an abusive relationship for seven years, and I also grew up in domestic violence. And that is, you know, abuse was normalized to me always. And so it was natural for me to be with somebody who, was physically aggressive with me. And I one day kind of just woke up and I thought, like, I don't want to do this to myself anymore. I don't want to do this to my children, and I deserve better. And so I sought help at a women's shelter in my community. and I started attending the groups that I run right now. And so I did that for about two years and started, you know, working on my soul wounds and trying to figure out who I am and what, what do I want in life? And, I had a lot of really good people support me along the way, and it brought me into social work. And when I was done school, I went back to the place that I found help and said, like, you know, I'm. I'm actively working on myself. I've changed my life. Give me a job. So I started as a crisis intervention worker within the women's shelter and worked my way up. I was an outreach worker for, just over two years, and then I had an opportunity to be a program manager for the shelter. So I managed five different programs and I supervised, approximately 30 staff. I did that for about two and a half years and was excellent experience, but it took me away from the frontline work that I wanted and the reason why I got into this field. And, I have a way with words that gives me the ability to connect with people on a different level. And I wanted to get back to that. So, ah, the job for the team lead position for the program that I'm in now became available, and I applied for it, and at the same time I applied to go back to school. And the. It just worked out like it was just meant to be. And I've been in my position for just over a year now, and I'm coming to the end of my third year for my education. And I get that connection with people. I work with, women who are experiencing abuse and want to make changes in their life, and I work with men who are abusive and want to make changes in their life. And so I feel honored to have the position to support people in those changes. I'm very open with my approach to work. I share openly and appropriately with my personal story. And just. I feel like it just makes it, more comfortable for people to be honest about their experiences. And that's. That's my passion, it's my push and. Yeah.
>> Myrna McCallum : Awesome. So tell me a little bit about, I mean, I don't want to go into the stories of that created the trauma. but I do want to know when you were going through those experiences like you mentioned already, which I think for at least I know myself and many indigenous people, I know that unfortunately is a common experience. And as a result of having had those experiences, did you ever go to the court seeking protection or seeking accountability for your perpetrators? And if so, how did that go for you?
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: well, my first interaction with the legal system was when I was nine years old. so I was physically abused as a child from my biological father. I lived with him for just over three years when I was young. And we. It came out after I was already removed from the home. But I have a sibling who is still living there. And, one of his teachers had noticed just, you know, signs of abuse. And so it was reported and it all started coming out, the experiences that my brother and I had when we were living with our father. And so, he was charged with child abuse and we had to testify. I remember going to court early in the morning and our court prep was like half an hour before our trial started. we were put in a little room, ah, asked maybe five or six questions from the crown. And I remember him asking me, if I knew about court or if I knew what would happen if I lied, if things like that. And the kid that I was, I said, well, yeah, I know about court. Ah, I watched Law and Order with my cook Em. And, I don't even know if I should have been watching that at that age, but I watched it with my cook'. Em. So, but that was it. That was the extent of our court. And we got to review our statements and then we were put in a hallway and they called us in one by one, we weren't allowed to have anybody in the room with us. we were there with my mom. And so by ourselves, one at a time, we went into the courtroom. in the room was the judge, my father, his lawyer and the crown prosecutor and my father's wife. And I was terrified. There was no court support, no anything to provide me with coping, nothing to make me feel safe. And I sat in front of my dad on the stand and had to openly say what happened to us there. And I was terrified. I was extremely vulnerable and I did not feel any resolution from it. he was found guilty, however, he fled the country. He went to, ah, in Europe. He was in Europe for 12 years. That's where his wife was from. And so he was essentially a fugitive on the run. Like he didn't have to serve any sentence, he didn't have to pay a fine. and his needs in the whole process were put before us as children. And I don't like to think like, oh, it's, you know, it's because I'm native and he's a French Canadian. but at the same time I can't ignore that. That is a fact. And when I say like his needs were more important than mine, during his sentencing, his lawyer had argued that, you know, he was an important member of the community. He was a business owner, the sole financial provider for his spouse, who was pregnant at the time. And so he had other children coming into the world. And so he was granted weekends instead of serving a consecutive sentence because he was an important person apparently. And so he served two weekends to my knowledge. And then before turning himself in for the third weekend is when he jumped on a plane and left the country. So, just no, no healing came from that experience other than the work that I've put into myself. And I have also had experience in the court with my ex partner who was my abuser. And nothing really came of that either. Like it didn't even go to trial. he, he had one court appearance. He was put on probation for a year. And that was, was just not, you know, in the situation. Like my life was genuinely in danger with him, but it wasn't taken into consideration because women who are victims of domestic violence are often stigmatized in settings that way. And we're not, it's not taken seriously, we're not listened to. And again, the only healing that came from that situation was what I put into myself. And I believe that we need to be leaders in our own when we're working through traumas, when we're, you know, healing those soul wounds. But we need to know that there's support available in systems like the legal system. And in my experience that's not the
>> Myrna McCallum : What about for So there will be some listeners who will say, oh well that was years ago. We now allow for accompaniment for minors when they have to testify in court. Or we now have victim support services. Or we now have a better understanding of how it is that we need to examine child witnesses or, or we now are getting educated in how to prosecute sexual assault cases. what would you say about whether or not the system has come far enough from your early experience at 9 years old in the courtroom to now? Do you think that there's been any advancements? Do you think that we're still making mistakes?
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: I absolutely think that there are still a lot of gaps in support. I have a relation who is a minor who ah, was a victim of a sexual assault from an adult male. And not much has changed so far. there are things like victim service supports, support animals that can come to court with the victim. agencies that you know, provide coping boxes, screens that protect the victim from during testifying so they don't have to look at their abuser. But they're not made easily available. It's something that, you know, we have victim service workers that are small offices that are covering huge regions and so there's no opportunity to build relationship. there's no communication, there is limited support and things have advanced. but not where they should be at, not when the 23 year difference. In my experience, there are more agencies out there, but the accessibility to them or the knowledge that they're out there is not where it should be. And so people fall through the cracks and they're re traumatized in systems like the legal system.
>> Myrna McCallum : Well, tell me or tell us how, how that might be especially. Or is it especially the case for young indigenous women and girls who are in these processes?
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: Absolutely. there's a lot of stereotypes, stigmatization, victim blaming. you know, during the process of supporting my relation, it's, it was a lot of questions like well, what was she doing there? did she say yes at first? in, in my point of view, it, it doesn't matter what she was doing there. It doesn't matter if you say yes at first. The minute you say no, it's no.
>> Myrna McCallum : plus she's a minor and the person who assaulted her was a adult.
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: Exactly.
>> Myrna McCallum : Those, those questions have no business being there.
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: Exactly. there, you know, we've even experienced questions like, was she drinking? no, she wasn't. And, but because she's Indigenous, that was one of the, our first experiences. We, you know, right from the get go of being at the hospital to, for her to be examined, to dealing with the police, it was not a good experience for us and our RCMP members over here. They did the best that they could with what they had. But the knowledge of indigenous people, the history of us, the approach to appropriately communicate with us, it's just not there. And that's a huge problem because it does harm to indigenous women, Indigenous girls, even indigenous men who are, and boys who are going through the system are victims of any type of abuse. But like sexual abuses, you know, that's a, that's a life sentence for a person. And it takes a lot of work to overcome that. Or, you know, I don't know if you ever truly overcome it, but to work through it, to be okay.
>> Myrna McCallum : yeah, as you say that, I'm just thinking about how, I'm with you. I don't, as somebody who was sexually abused a lot as a child, I don't know that you ever overcome that, but I, was thinking about. So Bessel Vanderkoek is this well known psychologist. He wrote a book called the Body Keeps the Score. And I think I have it on my desk. The Body keeps the Score. Healing, trauma. and one of the things he says, and I'm just gonna quote it for you because I happen to be writing about it this morning, is that she says trauma is, is like, it's the event that happens, but it's the, it's not so much the event that we need to focus on. It's the current imprint of pain, horror and fear that continue to live inside people after this event has occurred. And so what I have discovered in my work, as an adjudicator who had to examine folks who went through horrible, sexual assaults as children, whether it was 20 years earlier or 50, 60, 70 years earlier, is that people who hadn't healed all of those experiences, we're still living in that state of horror and fear and terror and pain, and it would present almost immediately. And that, I think is the first time I was ever challenged to think about, you know, that line that we often hear. Oh, time heals everything. Just give it time. Time heals nothing. Right. Like what I've discovered. And I attribute this learning to, Dr. Gabor Mate, who has said grief is really the great healer. We have to grieve the things that we've experienced, the losses we've been through, in order to find a new normal. So we're not living in this heightened state of extreme fear and horror and terror and pain that follows us through our lives. And so with that understanding in mind, in terms of how survivors, particularly, survivors who have experienced horrific abuse as children might carry that into their adulthood, what sort of supports should the system be providing for folks who are still living with that current imprint?
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: I think, like, first and foremost, we need to acknowledge that when we experience trauma as children, our brain gets stuck there. we have a harder time to mature and grow. And so sometimes you have childlike responses. And it's because we carry a wounded child inside of us that needs to be nurtured and loved and supported and reminded that, you know, it's going to be okay. But we do have to feel those emotions. And when you don't feel those tough emotions that come from experiencing horrible hurts such as sexual violence, we have a higher chance of having serious health problems. We have, higher chance of struggling with addiction, self medicating, doing whatever we can to suppress that trauma. And I believe that the support needs to start from day one when that abuses is reported. And there needs to be a platform to build relationships with the people who are supporting us. we need culturally specific supports. And what I mean by that is, you know, indigenous is an umbrella term. It encompasses all native people. But there's. It neglects the differences that we have. I'm a Metis woman who's married to a First Nations man. And there are huge differences in our cultures, even within the first Nations communities. Ah, like, you know, the ones that come to the top of my head right now in Alberta are like Cree, ah, Dene, ah, Blackfoot, all of those Nations there, there's differences within those Nations itself. And so we need that culturally specific support. We need to see our own people, our own colors, to feel comfortable and safe. because of the history that indigenous people have with, settlers of this land, there, there is no trust. And, we are trying to work towards reconciliation, but we have systems like the legal system that is. It's outdated and it continues oppression and marginalization. And we, it needs to change. And so another big thing that I think needs to happen to be, you know, supporting victims of sexual violence and, or any type of violence that causes trauma is, we need collaboration between our legal professionals and Indigenous people. People need to learn about indigenous people from indigenous people. we need to be taught the true history of things that have happened and, and why we see the issues that we do in indigenous Nations And we also, you know, we need to stop victim blaming, first of all. That's one of the biggest things. But we need culturally appropriate approaches to law. That was a mouthful. And. But when I say that, I mean, we need, you know, we need to use medicines in trials. I smudge when I'm overwhelmed, and I use sage because it's a woman's medicine. And to have the opportunity to ground yourself before you do something very brave, but very vulnerable and very scary. we need to feel comfortable. And having the opportunity to smudge prior to doing that could make a big difference in the type of testimony that a person gives, the strength that they have to do that. M. We need court supports from beginning to after the trial. And I call it the holistic approach to court support. we need constant, clear communication from the people who are helping us seek justice. you know, court support or court prep two weeks before a trial, which I believe is the norm now. and in my experience with my relations supporting her, that is the. That's going to be her court prep is she'll meet the crown two weeks before the trial. And I mean, how do you feel comfortable or safe when there's. There's no relationship? And we've made many requests to have that meeting, well before that, and we've been denied on multiple occasions. And I can't wrap my head around that. we need, court workers, advocates who have a relationship with us, meet with that person many times in between the report and the trial. And another huge component that's missing is support after the trial, because that hurt doesn't end at the end. A lot of times people don't get the level of justice that they're seeking, if they get any justice at all. I've supported many people in my position who have sought justice in the court system, but nothing came from it. Their abuser got off, and there's no healing there. It's not a place where people can feel safe. And so we need to ensure that we have westernized and indigenized supports in place for that victim after the trial. We need to do our due diligence to help people get out of that victim mentality.
>> Myrna McCallum : One of the reasons I've heard prosecutors say they don't want to meet early on with victims is, you know, for fear that the victim may Make a spontaneous statement that maybe is inconsistent with their original evidence and could be problematic when it comes time to go to trial. But what I would say to folks who raise that argument is a reason to not connect, is you need to first abandon that idea. and secondly, if you frame your approach as first building relationship as opposed to doing trial prep, there's two differences there. There's relationship building and inquiring. What do you need? How can I help you go through this process in a way that allows you to feel safe, empowered, informed and understood? That doesn't require a prosecutor to get into rehashing the story or the event that brought them together. It's a whole separate thing that is taking into account what it is that this person needs to feel supported. And I'm not suggesting that, prosecutors become that support, but once you know what people need, then maybe you could do your due diligence, do better to put them together with people who can help support them as they go through the process. So I'm with you, Chantal. I think there needs to be a relationship introduction, building component to ensure that people feel safe and supported as they go through these processes. And then there, of course, is the trial prep, which could come later, closer in time to the actual trial. But I'm hearing you talk about the importance of building relationships with people, and it's hard to do that when either, the Crown or the police or whoever the justice actors are, take no interest in the victim or in the indigenous victim and understanding what it is that they need to feel safe and empowered as they go through these processes.
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: I think that there's no understanding of even something like an indigenous trauma response. in my life and the people that I've grown up around, humor is a huge element of indigenous personality, indigenous identity. You know, we love to joke, we love to tease. and when we experience trauma, we cope through laughing. And in my advocacy for my relation, she had, I call it disassociated. She disassociated from the situation. And she was, you know, joking, laughing. And I was taken aside and asked, do you think this really happened? Because she's not reacting like somebody who is just assaulted. And it took everything in me to just take a deep breath, be calm. I really wanted to get frustrated, but I also know that when you don't respond appropriately or react to, ignorances like that, people don't take you serious. And so I just calmly said, this is her trauma response. And I know many people who have, you know, they say something that's a trauma statement. And then laugh right after. And it's not. It's not because we think it's funny. It's not because it didn't happen. It's not grounds to not believe that person. It is a way to hide the shame and the pain that you feel from being victimized or brutalized, however you want to look at it. And people need to understand that it's a way to mask that emotion. And if, you know, for me personally, if I'm going to be having to pick between crying in front of strangers who don't know me and don't know anything about me. Ah. And I have to pick between crying and laughing, I'm going to laugh. I don't want to seem vulnerable because I feel when that vulnerability comes out, you get judged either way. again, with, like, victim blaming and things of that nature. And so to understand that's a part of us, we have to address that.
>> Myrna McCallum : Let me ask you this question, because as I listen to you, I think now about Cindy Gladio. And for those who don't know, Cindy Gladue was a Metis mom and sister and daughter, and she was loved by her family and her community. She was brutally murdered in a hotel by a fellow named Bradley Barton. That matter went to trial in Alberta a couple of times, and ultimately, and most recently, maybe three times now, he's finally been convicted of manslaughter, but it had to go to the Supreme Court of Canada. And what was really shocking about the trial of Bradley Barton in an Alberta courtroom was that, at various points in the original trial, Cindy Glady was repeatedly referred to as that native woman, never referred to by name or rarely referred to by name by all parties that were in the courtroom. So they were all complicit in dehumanizing her by refusing to even identify her by name. And if that wasn't bad enough, the Crown decided and the court allowed for her vagina to be preserved and introduced into court as evidence to demonstrate the wound that led to her bleeding to death. And ultimately, you brought about all of these, legal processes, and that had never been done in Canada before. And as a former prosecutor, I was shocked because I thought there are other ways in which you can introduce this evidence, a coroner's report, photographs, whatever. I just thought as a. And as a Metis woman as well, I was stunned and dismayed and disturbed, by the justice system's treatment of Metis, of this Metis woman and what that signals to other Metis women in this province and across Canada about what Our worth is. And I'm curious, Chantelle, about how you experienced that. When all of this, all of these things were being reported in media,
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: I was horrified. I prayed for her children and her mother every day. Every time I lit my smudge, I. You know, even now, still, her mother is fighting in court to have her remains that were cut from her to be returned so that she can lay her daughter to rest in the way that she deserves. her children and her mom had to sit in a courtroom on three different trials and to seek any kind of justice and witness her body parts being put on display. And that is, you know, the trauma that they are probably still dealing with as a result of that. It hurts my heart on a level that I, you know, it. It makes me emotional to think of that, because do we. Do we not matter? Do. Are we not people? Like, say her name. She's a person. There's no humanity in the legal system, and it's horrible. It's for. For all marginalized populations in Canada and I'm sure across the world. And as a Metis woman, like, my spirit matters. I'm a human, and I matter, and I refuse to be dismissed and, you know, to be identified as that Native woman. Yes, I am a Native woman, and I'm proud of that. I have overcome so many things in my life that, you know, people who don't experience those things could never understand. And the history of where that comes from, the normalization of patriarchal violence, that has to be acknowledged. And we need to see each other as people. There's, you know, there's a statement that I often hear from non indigenous people that is, I don't see color. I don't agree with that statement at all. I think that to be respectful, we need to say, yes, I see your color, I respect your color and what you go through because of that color. And we are still humans together collectively, because that is true reconciliation. And we don't get that in government systems. And in my experience, I've never experienced a true form of justice. And I truly hope that with what I'm, you know, going through and navigating right now, I truly hope that we do. I'm also not holding my breath or counting on it.
>> Myrna McCallum : well, I want to. I want to pivot into how we can do better. And I'm going to just share with all of our listeners and you, ah, something the Supreme Court of Canada said in, when that Bradley Barton matter went to the Supreme Court in 2019, their very first paragraph, they Said we live in a time where myths, stereotypes and sexual violence against women, particularly Indigenous women and sex workers, are tragically common. Our society has yet to come to grips with just how deep rooted these issues truly are and just how devastating their consequences can be. Without a doubt, eliminating myths, stereotypes and sexual violence against women is one of the more pressing challenges we face as of society. While serious efforts are being made by a range of actors to address and remedy these failings, both within the criminal justice system and throughout Canadian society more broadly, this case attests to the fact that more needs to be done. Put simply, we can and must do better. What advice do you have, Chantel, about how we can and must do better?
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: We need to understand and respect different worldviews. Indigenous worldview is very different than Western worldview. And there is an over representation of Western worldview in Indigenous lives. we need to change the approach to law school. I personally believe we need Indigenous law schools. We need to see more Indigenous people in all levels of the law. From ah, RCMP or any policing agencies, court advocates, court supports, lawyers, judges and all levels of it. We need that. We need a trauma.
>> Myrna McCallum : Supreme Court judges.
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: Yes, all the way up to the top. We need that we need, we need to understand that a trauma.
>> Myrna McCallum : Why is that important? Like, why is that important to bring a cult, like somebody who reflects the society that they are serving, Somebody who understands trauma, who understands the important connection between ceremony and culturally specific supports. somebody who understands that when we bring Indigenous people into the justice system, we're bringing them into a system that is imposed upon them and is therefore, not a welcoming environment. Given what history has told us about what those places inflict upon Indigenous people, why is it important to bring that lived experience and that knowledge into these spaces?
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: The first thing that comes to mind for that is because we have, that will create a voice that takes us serious. we can. You know, we've been talking for years and advocating for years about the changes that are needed. But unless you're in the right platform, those things aren't taken serious. And it provides a different perspective. It humanizes us. because like I said, when there, you know, there is no humanity in this system and often when people look at Indigenous people, they don't look at it in a, In a respectful way that we are humans also. and it makes it safer for us to report. I know in my own experience the treatment and the retraumatization that I experienced going through the court as a child Prevented me from reporting sexual abuse that I experienced in my life on more than one occasion. I have been through a lot of things that I never reported because I never wanted to. To be invalidated on that level again. And that's why we have so many assaults and on all levels that. That are not reported. And it. Then we have people walking around with all this hurt and hurt people, hurt other people. And so it just, you know, it's a vicious cycle. And so we need that comfort and advocacy and understanding in all levels of the legal system. Something else I wanted to also talk about too, is the, rights that victims have in the court process. Offenders have more rights than the victim in that victims have five rights. In my, like, in my recent research, that's what I've learned. And the wording of it is so vague that it causes a lot of gray area to have those rights dismissed. And I don't agree with it.
>> Myrna McCallum : What are those five rights, Chantelle?
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: so you have the right to information. You can request information about the court process and have it provided to you. What to expect, what's expected of you. but in my experience, you. You don't get answers. You have the right to protection. so privacy, especially if you are like a minor and things like that. Your name can't be released. you have a right to a screen to protect you from having your abuser look at you. you have the right to participation so you can actively participate in your trial. which to me, like, that's kind of expected, why I'm reporting this crime. You have the right to restitution. So you can request that a judge orders the offender to provide you with monetary, you know, to pay you, to which, you know, I. Money doesn't heal things. So I understand that it can open the door to have access to, supports that can provide healing. but, we recently in Alberta, we used to have this thing called the Victims of Crime Fund. So if you were a victim of a crime, you could get money from the government that would go to your healing. because no. Counselors and psychologists are quite pricey to access. And if you don't have the benefits to cover that, but we no longer have that. And it's really unfortunate that we. It's not an option for people anymore. but back to the rights. The last and final right is you have a right to make a complaint if you feel that you, had been denied the first four rights. But within those rights, what is actually pertaining to the crime and what is actually pertaining to the trial or the process, or access to supports or anything of that? you know, an offender has the, has a right to a speedy trial. But victims wait years to even see a courtroom. And within those years that they're waiting, they're in limbo. There's no support provided. And it's, it's, it's so unfortunate because keeps people stuck in that hurt. And like I said, in my experience with supporting my relation, her assault happened in 2019. It's now been put off until 2022, the summer of 2022. And so that opens the door for things to be dismissed. The longer we wait, the more rights her, her abuser has and the less she has. And that's a serious problem. Like, that's something that needs to be addressed as soon as possible. And we also need more firmer wording for those rights. Wholeheartedly, it needs to be changed.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, I'm thinking a couple things as you talk about the Chantelle. One is, you know, here in Canada we have, a case that went to the Supreme Court of Canada, Jordan, which, was a case that, ah, discuss the delays and right to trial, like, right to trial in a reasonable time. And essentially where there is more delay, and I can't remember what the formula is because I've been out of the game a while, but where there is a delay that has exceeded so many years or months, the charge will be stayed. And we're seeing people just walk away, because of delay. And I'm sure this pandemic has created even more delays. So what we're going to see is more people who've been charged with very violent crimes never being held accountable because their lawyer will make a delay argument. And so I'm hearing you say that, which is really valid. I'm also hearing you say that with the delay comes the inability to allow the victim to move forward and do the healing and put this, put this horrific experience of their lives behind them. It's constantly over their heads, weighing on them, weighing on them. And then all the fear associated with the impending, trial that is coming and being put on the stand and what's going to happen and the uncertainty that comes with.
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: We have, you know, we have offenders who are using the law and the legal system to discredit the person that they victimized. And it's. How shameful is that?
>> Myrna McCallum : It's true. I mean, Elaine Craig is a professor at Dalhousie University. She wrote a book, called Putting Trials on trial. And a lot of what's in that book is exactly this. The ways in which, accused persons and their lawyers whack victims and really put them through the wringer, demoralize them, embarrass them in an effort to either hope they don't return to court after a preliminary hearing, to testify so that the charges end up being stayed, or to just, successfully, allow their client to get off on these charges. So definitely the treatment of victims experiencing sexual assault, there's no shortage of instances where their treatment is demoralizing, disrespectful and, outright shocking, I would say. So what do you think it's going to take, Chantel, to put some credibility back into a system that right now has no credibility, especially for victims of sexual violence and maybe even more especially victims for indigenous women and girls who we know in this country are at high risk for becoming, ah, for being murdered, for being, raped, for being, for going missing. what do you think it's going to take? In addition to staffing all of these positions with people who look like us and who come from the same lived experience and who understand the connection to culture and ceremony, what else is it going to take?
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: Loud action. That's the first thing that comes to mind. we live in a society where policies and laws hurt people every single day. And those policies and laws need to be updated. They need to match the needs of the people that they're serving. we can't continue to function on a system that was, you know, I, ah, don't mean this in a rude way, but it's. I always will speak my truth. the system was made by white people for white people. And that needs to change. We need. This system was built hundreds of years ago on outdated ideals. Ah, even calling it the justice system is misleading. you know, can we change the name to the unjust system? It's easy to make statements, it's easy to say, yes, this needs to change, but what comes after it? And I think even things like, you know, the calls to action for mmiw, missing and murdered indigenous women, calls to action for reconciliation. Where is the action? Because it's easy to say words, but our actions need to match it and we, we need to do better. We need more educated indigenous people expecting change, demanding change, working together to create that change and building that bridge to, you know, fill those gaps. There should be an elder involved in absolutely every court case that involves an indigenous victim. And I mean that respectfully if that person identifies with their spirituality and their culture. because so much was taken from us, we have a lot of Indigenous people who, who are religious and that's okay. but it needs to be an option at least. Do you practice your culture? Are you traditional? if the answer is yes, that elder should be brought in from the get go. Everything in this world Indigenous people are in relationship with. And that is why relationship throughout the court process is so important. And when you're talking about spiritual items, even something as simple as a rock, that's a grandfather to us, that's a grandfather spirit. And we need to honor and respect that. And if you don't know that, then you need to seek that knowledge. You need to go to an elder or a knowledge keeper and follow protocol and offer tobacco or print and ask for that. Like I said, learn about Indigenous people from Indigenous people. That is true reconciliation. That is decolonizing justice for Indigenous people. And that's what is needed. We need to respect that. We see the world different, we experience the world different, but we need to be open to listening to one another. And that's, it's very one sided currently and that's a big thing that needs to change. And I know that things aren't going to change overnight, but even incorporating circle process, restorative justice, learning about those things and, and how you, you seek true healing through listening and redemption. And I think about your podcast with, with the author of Peace and Good Order. I'm reading that book right now.
>> Myrna McCallum : Harold Jaunzems. Yes.
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: I couldn't remember his last name, but I remember his first name and I can see his face in my mind. and his story of redemption involving his brother and the person who had killed him in the accident. And so the power that comes from forgiveness and redemption is on a level that I don't think this world has fully understood yet. But that is traditionally the Indigenous way and it's through restorative justice that we seek that. And we need to at least incorporate those pieces. If it can't change the way it should, we need to just be more open to including things outside of the Western norm.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, exactly. I mean, not to say that we would ever put a sexual assault victim and their perpetrator in some kind of restorative justice process. Just so the listeners understand we're not advocating that. What we're saying is that folks need to understand the connection that Indigenous people have to each other and the value of relationships that, that really guide their, their practices and their spirituality and Even their laws. And that within their, within that culture is oftentimes space for conference space for redemption and rehabilitation and reparation of harm in all contexts, because we have to. It's all about making people whole again who do harm. And that's a conversation, I think, maybe for another podcast, Chantelle. But having that, it's important to understand that, if we really want to end sexual violence, particularly as we experience it in indigenous communities, we have to make space for the conversation that we need to allow folks to be rehabilitated and to, offer reparations for the harm that they have caused.
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: Absolutely. And that is, 100% my intent behind, behind that statement. I, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Like, you know, I myself would not want to be in circle, with people who have abused me in my life, especially in the sexual aspect. But our system does not allow for redemption, to understand the harm that perpetrators cause because the system supports their rights more than victims. And so how do you learn what you've done is wrong or not okay and detrimental to another person's overall well being if, if you don't have to face the consequences of it? So it's. There just needs to be inclusion. We need to be included in the process. We need, we need to have power in our voices to make decisions for ourselves or at least be included in the decision making.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, so I'm hearing you say our ways need to be reflected in these legal processes. And you're right about the criminal justice system. It's either about protecting the rights of the offender or it is about, denunciation or punishment. So prison is punished punishment, but that doesn't necessarily do anything to hold people accountable, to make space for redemption, to make space for reparation. And it becomes really complex when we're talking about an offender and a victim who are either from the same nation or the same community, and all of the complexities that come with that. And then it's even compounded further if we're talking about an offender and a victim within a family structure, whether it's extended or nuclear. And, the prison system and the justice system does nothing to address that relationship.
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: And the trauma gets compounded on its own when a victim has to continuously see their abuser in their community or in their family because of the extended period of time that they are waiting for their trial. And it, you know, it, it just, it deepens that soul wound that you carry for your life.
>> Myrna McCallum : Chantelle sparkling Eyes. This has been such an awesome conversation, a heavy conversation, but how can. It's. It's really hard to make light of such an important subject. And we touched on a lot of stuff today. So I really hope that, as you walk away from the zoom session with me, and as I do so, we both individually do something to kind of cleanse some of the heaviness that we brought into the conversation. But it was definitely a necessary conversation for our listeners who are asking themselves, how do we serve victims of violence in a way that is trauma informed and culturally responsive? And how do. Where are we getting it wrong and how can we do better? And I think that you have done a tremendous job of giving us a, roadmap to at least finding a new way forward, because we need a new way forward. So thank you.
>> Chantelle Sparkling Eyes: Well, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to share my experience and my beliefs on what needs to change and how we can get there and, getting on my level with me, and I am. I think that something I want to say to end it off is that talking is healing, and we need to be open to listening to each other's stories because we all have one and making that, you know, holding that safe space for each other is key in all of this. And so thank you for holding that space for me and giving me this opportunity. And definitely self care is key. we have to take care of ourselves so that we can care for others. I just want to remind people who are listening that holding that space for people empowers healing. It fosters healing, and that's what we need. Support each other in overcoming and working through those tough emotions and healing those soul wounds. So thank you again, Myrna.
>> Myrna McCallum : Treat people like you are in relationship with them, and that's how we bring humanity back into this space.
>> Myrna McCallum : Thanks for listening. Until next time, take care of yourselves. This episode was recorded on the traditional ancestral and unceded territories of the Squamish Tsleil Waututh and Musqueam people.