In this episode, I speak with Jordan Assaraf, a personal injury lawyer who served as co-counsel for the plaintiffs in the Ukraine Airlines case. Jordan shares how this case has helped him adapt his approach to working with clients experiencing trauma. We discuss the unique challenges of representing victims and their families in high-profile mass litigation, the emotional weight of seeking justice after tragedy, and why a trauma-informed approach is critical in cases involving profound loss. Jordan also reflects on the evolution of his legal practice, emphasizing the importance of flexibility, empathy, emotional intelligence and resilience when advocating for anyone experiencing trauma, grief and loss. Our conversation sheds light on how the legal profession can better support survivors and why the willingness to adapt is essential for trauma-informed advocacy.
In this episode, I sit down with personal injury lawyer Jordan Assaraf to discuss his role as co-counsel for the plaintiffs in the Ukraine Airlines case. Jordan shares his insights on the challenges of advocating for victims of large-scale tragedies and how his willingness to adapt has shaped his approach to trauma-informed legal work.
We explore:
🔹 The complexities of the Ukraine Airlines case and the commitment to do no further harm to the families of the victims
🔹 How Jordan’s background in personal injury law informs his work in mass litigation
🔹 The importance of a trauma-informed approach when working with survivors and their families
🔹 What it means to adapt as a lawyer in high-stakes, emotionally charged cases
Join us for a powerful conversation on justice, resilience, and the evolving role of legal professionals in supporting those impacted by tragedy. If you can join us at the Justice as Trauma Conference, visit www.myrnamccallum.co for more info and tickets.
You can check out the Ukraine Airlines case and the trauma informed guidelines Jordan helped create here: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2024/2024onsc3303/2024onsc3303.html
Jordan Assaraf is a personal injury lawyer with extensive experience in complex litigation. His work on the Ukraine Airlines case reflects his commitment to advocating for those who have been harmed and ensuring a trauma-informed approach to legal representation.
You can learn more about Jordan's work at www.gluckstein.com
You can also read Jordan's blog post here: https://www.gluckstein.com/news-item/are-we-seeing-a-positive-paradigm-shift-in-our-justice-system--trauma-informed-trial-guidelines-for-ukraine-international-airlines-flight-752
Gluckstein also has their very own podcast: https://www.gluckstein.com/resources/videos-and-podcasts
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>>Myrna McCallum: I’m Myrna McCallum, Metis-Cree lawyer and passionate promoter of trauma-informed lawyering. As you know, I believe that law scholars and bar courses are missing a critical competency in their curriculum: trauma-informed lawyering. Becoming a trauma-informed lawyer will, among other things, challenge you to critically reflect on your personal behaviors, beliefs and biases. Call on you to positively transform the way you approach advocacy. Guide your practice in to avoid doing further harm to others. And ask that you commit to remaining open to learn new and old knowledge you didn’t know you needed before beginning your career.
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>> Myrna McCallum : Hi there. Jordan as Raf welcome to the Trauma Informed Lawyer Podcast.
>> Jordan: Thank you for having me. Glad to be on it.
>> Myrna McCallum : Right on. I'm so excited to talk to you. I can't remember now. I think I stumbled upon your work on LinkedIn and it related to, Ukraine Airlines, matter that you were involved in and you wrote about, I think a blog post for your firm on trauma informed guidelines. But before we get into talking about that, I just want to introduce you to my listeners so folks can learn a little bit about you. tell me, like, what do you practice? Where are you from? What do you want to share with us?
>> Jordan: Okay, well, I'm glad to be on the podcast and I'm glad to be able to present and share my stories and what I've learned over the number of years or through the trials that I've done with your audience. I am a lawyer from Toronto. I practice at Gluckstein Lawyers. We have offices in Toronto, in Niagara, in Barrie and Ottawa. Majority, of my practice started off as single event personal injury cases that's developed over time. I do some sexual abuse litigation as well. I've done some medical malpractice m and I'm transitioning to more of the mass tort class action side of things. so our firm does have a wide range of practice areas. I've been a Lawyer now since 2012 at the exact same firm. we consider ourselves a, ah, little family here. a lot of the people here have been here for a number of years and we all just get along great and we all have the same approach and what we pride ourselves in at our firm is our full circle care with our clients. So we don't just handle your case, we're actually with you the entire way and try and get you back to where you were, had the accident or issue or injury not occurred. But making sure that we do Follow along with your family because once you're part of the Gluckstein family, your family for life. So whether there's, it's supporting you after an accident or after the event, supporting charities that you run, that's something that we do pride ourselves in. And I think I want to carry that over to the mass tort and class action side of things where there's not as much client interaction and individual interaction, it's more on a group basis. But I think bringing that approach and bringing a trauma informed approach to that type of lawyer is something new, and innovative that, that we hope people start following along. So that's a little bit about my work life, personal, personal life. I like to have a little bit of fun. I really enjoy golfing, travel a little bit. I've got an amazing wife at home and dog. so if I'm really not at work, you'll probably find me on the golf course. but I also do give back, to charities and not for profits. so I started off work. I started off, as a volunteer for the Brain Injury Society of Toronto, which really was a community, that was really close and dear to the work that we do. And start started off doing and did a number of years at the Brain Injury Society of Toronto on the board of directors leading to chair of the board for a number of years. M. I stopped that about three or four years ago, but have continued to support the charity and actually run their annual golf tournament. We're in year number 10 and all the funds that we raise at the golf tournament go to help the members and survivors of people living with brain injuries. Now that has transitioned a little bit, through that board. I always thought, you know what, I do like to give back. You want to always do more than, what's expected of you, but also give back to the community that you're supporting and you work for. So I now am the current chair of Variety Village Children's Charity of Ontario. We have a 12,000 square foot facility for kids with disabilities and adults in the Scarborough area. We provide programming and support throughout Ontario, for kids with disabilities. And it's amazing, organization, an amazing facility. And that's something that is sort of near and dear to my heart now that I've been doing for the last number of years. I've chaired the board for the last two years. I don't know how much longer I can continue chairing the board, but we'll see where my next endeavor brings me after this very cool I guess you could tell I talk a lot too.
>> Myrna McCallum : So I think that comes with the territory when you're a lawyer. Right? Like we don't know when to stop and we'll just keep going. It's all good. It's all good. I mean I like the way that you're almost like pitching your firm. I think people listening who are a little bit miserable in the Toronto area, you might, they'll probably be googling your firm as they're listening. Oh my God. Sounds like awesome.
>> Jordan: it's more than just Ontario. It is, it is all over Canada. Given that the work that we do, impacts communities all over, especially the sexual litigation group that we have and, and the clientele that they have comes from, from all over the country. birth, injury as well. And same with the class action in the mass tort space. So not just geared to Ontario, but that is where I live for now. Unless somebody has a great offer there. Because B.C. is beautiful. Lotus land. I keep telling, like people need to come here. Well, we are coming to your amazing conference in March.
>> Myrna McCallum : I know, right? I'm really excited. after I learned about you, I invited you to present at my conference that's happening, the Justice's Trauma Conference, which is happening March 14th to 17th at the Vancouver Convention Center. And it just so happened I'm a big believer in things like, I don't know, serendipity, I don't know, the universe manifesting. I'm one of those boo woo types and I was like, it totally lined up because you're here, you're here.
>> Jordan: I know. It was, it just happened to be perfect. I'm so glad you've reached out and I don't think you threw a plug in for all the listeners that haven't purchased tickets yet to this conference that I think you guys should. You do not want to miss this conference and the lineup of speakers. I did not get paid for that. Just to let everybody know. so yeah, it turns out that my wife and there are in Vancouver for ah, her, One of her best friend's weddings. And it is serendipitous that you had asked to speak and I will just be there in person and extremely excited to meet the community, and everybody out there as well.
>> Myrna McCallum : It's going to be awesome. It was awesome last year, it'll be awesome again. And the people who were on your panel, I mean we got a fellow coming from Ireland, Rebecca Senior, who is prosecutor in Ontario. who helped build the Canora justice center is coming to talk about that work. My friends Jen and Charmaine, who are police officers with the RCMP and longtime senior police officers are going to talk about their work. And I think it's going to. Your panel alone is going to be phenomenal. But all the other panels and all the other keynotes, it's going to be great. And so, yeah, so for folks who want a ticket, like get in touch with me, Vernam co, I'm easy to find. But Jordan, I want to talk about, like, there's no shortage of pain and suffering and misery in the world. You know this, we know this. Which is why, like, you wouldn't be working at the pace in which you're working and in the areas in which you're working if not for the pain and suffering. Let me ask you this. When you were in law school, did law school prepare you for all the pain and suffering that you were going to encounter in your clients, in the legal issues, in the evidence?
>> Jordan: Not at all. And that is something that needs to change now. I did go to law school in Australia, which might mean that some of the courses we took and the way that we learned is different than some of the learning that's done here or the learning done, abroad in other countries. But unless you're joining one of the legal communities, you don't have much client interaction. So you don't, I mean, aside from your teacher that's going to play fake client, you're certainly not seeing the pain and the suffering that people are going through. There's no social work classes, there's no client interaction classes. There's no trauma informed classes for lawyering. Things that you will need and need to use once you're out of law school. Dealing with real life people, real life situations, and ongoing pain and suffering. I mean, it's, it's not just from what they've contacted us for. life throws everybody curveballs. So I think it is something that definitely needs to be implemented in law schools. you know, maybe it's, it doesn't necessarily have to be about the law, but there is an aspect to trauma informed lawyering, of course, that should be brought into, to law schools and offered to those that are getting into the, those vulnerable clientele areas, whether it's criminal or family or civil, 100%. Something that should and was not offered at the time. I don't even know if it's offered now.
>> Myrna McCallum : Well, what about your barcourse? You had to get Called to the Law Society of Ontario. Yes, so what about that?
>> Jordan: But no, nobody has feelings on multiple choice tests. So unfortunately that, that's not, I mean you're asked ethical questions, but that's not giving you a, ah, real understanding into emotional intelligence and empathy into what other people are experiencing and how to deal with them.
>> Myrna McCallum : No, it's true, it's true. I was just at I was just in Winnipeg I think like last week, and I was invited in from the dean at Robson hall, that's the law school in Winnipeg. And I spent the whole day there. I spent the morning talking with faculty, law school staff, all of those folks. And then the afternoon, included some students, some clinics, some practitioners. It was a pretty awesome day. It was a long day, but it was an awesome day. But I have to say like, other than being brought in for these one off, like talk to students for an hour about this, I think this is the first time I've had law school leadership invite me in and sit as a learner. Like usually if somebody invites me in or offers to pay me for something, they don't participate. And I have found that to be incredibly problematic because then you don't know what you don't know. And then the system keeps doing what the system does and the classes keep being very narrow and not really doing the thing that it needs to do, which is, you know, we need to update and upgrade our curriculum and maybe, yeah, trauma informed lawyering. But I also think like law students need to learn how to build relationships, how to build relationships with clients, how to build relationships with colleagues, how to build relationships with the court and how to do, do it in a way that includes not just trauma informed principles, but also cultural humility and emotional intelligence. And especially now because we live in a culture and a climate where everyone is addicted to their cell phones, meaning that we spend more time looking at a screen than we do looking at each other. And that's going to be, that's a problem and it's going to show itself in the next 10, 20 years. The inability for people to see each other and communicate with each other.
>> Jordan: Yeah, I thought, I thought I saw a recent stat that was saying that most, I guess you know, ages 10 to sort of 20, 25, they are all about text messaging. so you're not really having that human interaction. I mean, I don't, I personally can't tell when someone raises their voice or has attitude on a text message. I mean it's just words to me. so maybe my emotional intelligence skills aren't as, high as they should be on the text message scale, but ultimately, I think people should have face to face interaction. Covid really changed that too. Especially in the legal practice. I mean, we don't meet as many clients face to face. You don't get that same feeling in that you're not able to be there as much for those clients as you can in person compared to on Zoom. I mean, you can do as, as much as you can to be there and understand and listen to them. But. But of course, being face to face, I think just has, that much more of an impact.
>> Myrna McCallum : Totally. Like, all the more reason to, like, invest in these skill sets. Yes.
>> Jordan: Yeah. I want to ask you, I know this is your podcast and you asked me questions, but tell me a little bit more about your time and what, like, what group of students were you asked to speak to? Was it the entire law school or was it a select group that the professor chose? And why is it that we can't get the entire law school to buy into this?
>> Myrna McCallum : Okay, so normally when I've been brought into, when I'm brought into law schools, it's usually because the instructor listens to my podcast. So I'm talking to just their class. this time it was the dean who, who took the initiative. And everybody was invited. Everyone was invited. The problem, though, and no shade to Richard the dean, is that it's really hard to find a date where everyone is available. So, like, the profs can show up, the students can show up. So it happened during a break, meaning that the numbers were low. But on the flip side, those who were interested, those who wanted to be there, made an effort to be there.
>> Jordan: Right. And at least you did have the dean invite the law school and the professors as well. So you.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, and not just the. And not just the professors. He also invited support staff, people who do student service work, because he knows trauma travels, and he said it, Trauma travels, it's everywhere. We're all kind of steeped in it. And so everyone's interfacing with some degree of, like, something or something they're carrying. Right. That's, that's kind of bouncing off of whatever we're dealing with. And so, yeah, like, the guy is, conscious, which is not to say other, like, deans are not. But, you know, he is listening. He's listening to his students. his students want an education that includes, trauma informed lawyering, trauma informed practice, trauma informed advocacy. And he's listening and he's Responding. And so, you know, that is great. I applaud, I applaud Richard at Robson hall for listening.
>> Jordan: Thank you, Richard. Let's see some more, Dean. Step up and, and implement this. you had mentioned something earlier about, emotional intelligence and, and empathy. And while we talk about, in dealing with clients, you are dealing with it within your office as well. so, you know, it, it extends beyond the clientele and, and really the business of law incorporates that too. And, and talking about that and, and possibly law schools looking into that aspect too, because like you had said, it is everywhere.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, yeah. And at every level. So, like, I don't know what it, what it takes to get, licensed at the lso, but here in British Columbia, we had to do like a mock interview. And from what I hear from the young folks, they're still having to do a mock interview at pltc. And, it still doesn't integrate or, or consider the trauma of the people that we're dealing with. It's just, it's just getting facts from facts only. Right? And I think when we approach legal work, just striving to get facts only, we're going to do harm. Because I'm of the view, I'm of the view that in order to see the humanity in others, you have to be willing to feel it in yourself. And I think that for some of us lawyers, that is a really scary prospect, because maybe, unlike yourself, Jordan, I did not go to law school to help people. I went to law school because I thought, here is a career that's going to allow me to live in my head, not have to feel the pain in my body and make a lot of money just operating from my brain.
>> Jordan: And then, oh, I'm not gonna lie, I, I went to law school for the exact same thing.
>> Myrna McCallum : Did you really?
>> Jordan: Yes, yes. I, I can't sit here and say, it was for the money, but it turned out, well, of course it still is. And if somebody said, you know, you'll do this, I don't know if I would do it. but would I certainly give the time that I do to volunteering and, that I, I would continue to do? yeah. Why did I. I just sort of lost my train of thought.
>> Myrna McCallum : You just admitted that maybe we, we are maybe in, as a profession, we're more similar than we admit. Like that money is a driver. Being analytical, being a fighter, arguing these are drivers, like, these are the attractants sometimes for becoming lawyers. It's not always altruism. And oh, my God, I Want to help all the people. I'm sure. I know there are lawyers like that, but not all to law school for that purpose. So I want to ask you, like, when did the switch flip for you that you were like, holy shit, I'm a bit, like, out of my depth or in the deep end. These people actually need care. They need empathy. They need compassion. I can't just be a hotshot lawyer, you know, just grilling them for facts. They need to be acknowledged. They need support. Like, at what point did that. Did you wake up to that realization?
>> Jordan: Yeah. Well, I mean, the. The whole start of my journey into personal injury was, pretty interesting and fun story in itself. I could share it today or I could do it. So I. Yeah, Bernie Gluckstein doesn't like me always saying this because it. It makes the firm look like, oh, how do we hire here? So, I going to law school in Australia. I had to do some conversions exam, convert my degree to be national accredited, in Canada. And I did some exams. I had passed those exams. I was at the baseball game. I'm walking upstairs to go get a beer on the main floor, and a man and woman are walking, and the man just keeps walking, and the woman just wipes out. And he walks right by her. He doesn't even notice. And I went up to him, and I said, excuse me, sir. I said, your wife fell back there. and he looks. He says, no, no, that's. That's not my wife. but I'm. Let's go see if she's okay. so we go over, and obviously, just coming out of law school, you make a lot of wisecracks listening to a lot of U.S. litigation. And something I say is, oh, you know, how are you doing? She's like, oh, I'm okay. I'm like, oh, I think you should call your lawyers. you know, slip and fall. Call a lawyer, Better call Saul. And they both look at me, and they're like, we are lawyers. And I looked at the gentleman, And I said, Mr. Gluckstein. And he said, oh, how did you know? I said, oh, I recognize your face from the Internet. I applied to your firm about four months ago. He says, oh, what are you looking for? I said, article. He says, we don't have any space. I said, do you have a kitchen? He said, we do have a kitchen. I said, okay, so you have some space. He says, you know, why don't you send me your resume? So I sent him my resume, and he called me up and he asked me what did I want to do. And this is where it goes back to the truth of law school. I said, I. I want to do corporate law. I said, why? Says, isn't that where the money is? And he says to me, I can't help you. I only do personal injury. I said, well, tort law was the best grade I had in law school, so I wouldn't be opposed to trying out this area of law. And he asked me to. Actually, he first said he can't help me in personal injury, but if I were to work for free, I can come summarize a criminal case. So I came into the office that day, got invited in and started summarizing a criminal case. That was the first time I had looked at photos of people who, unfortunately, this extremely sad case, which had changed the law in construction in Ontario, but it was relating to, some workers that had got on a scaffold that weren't harnessed in and end up falling a, number of stories down to ultimately leading to their death. And I was looking at these photos and summarizing the file, that was the first time I'd ever been exposed to anything like that. I wasn't sick to my stomach, but it was certainly. It hit home and it really, you know, went to my heart. And I'm like, oh, this is, an area that's going to bring out some feelings, whether it's criminal or leading into the personal injury that eventually, over time, I started to do and realizing people are calling you in an extremely vulnerable state and they're looking at you to help rebuild their lives at the end of a case. And that didn't, you know, that took a couple years to finally get to. But you look back and you realize, look at the help that you provided to these people and what you've done to try and turn their life around from one of the most, difficult time periods they've ever been faced or been involved with. And that's, I would say, the. When it opened my eyes up to, wow, you're really helping people here. Which led me then to the Brain Injury Society and obviously the charity work that I do. and that sort of started it, but ultimately, Charles Gluckstein actually let me take a course called Global CEO, which was more of a leadership course. Through that leadership course, there was a presenter, by the name of Jamel Lindo, who is an emotional intelligence coach. And Jamel presented and it. His presentation resonated with me once the conclusion of that global CEO course, I actually called up Jamel and I said, you know, do you do one on one coaching? I want to become a better leader, but I want to improve my emotional intelligence. I want to see where am I, you know, where am I low on the EQ scale, how can I improve? Because ultimately it's going to turn around and benefit the clients that I deal with on a daily basis, but also the people that I work with. so for the last three years, I've been taking emotional intelligence, courses or coaching classes, to try and develop my skills and really understand what people are going through. More than just you're advocating for them, but now you're putting yourself into their shoes, trying to really focus and be there for them, you know, every step of the way. And I think that's what sort of increased that, want and knowledge that. Or inform information seeking, leading to that trauma. Informed approach. Approach. And, and I think, yeah, as long as that was to, to spiel out of my mouth, that's essentially how that sort of, that side of things developed.
>> Myrna McCallum : What would you say, Jordan, to anyone who would be like, we're lawyers, we're not social workers, we're not care providers, we're not support people, we're lawyers?
>> Jordan: I would say you're right, you are lawyers. However, you don't have a social worker on staff. You don't have people that can sit there and deal with this. So as much as your lawyers suck it up and start learning how to deal with other people, how to put yourselves in their shoes, take emotional intelligence courses, learn. Because it's not just going to help you in law, it's going to help you in your entire career, your personal life, your, Your friends, your family. it's got a, it's got a lot further reach than just the legal work that you do, for sure.
>> Myrna McCallum : And would you not agree that it also helps with how you deal with the court, how you deal with opposing counsel, how you, how you approach conflict?
>> Jordan: Of course, it, in fact, I think, you know, when dealing with hostile counsel, if you can take the higher ground, you can really rattle someone's cage without raising your voice and just being empathetic or showing some emotional intelligence that they're just in. Why is this not affecting him? How is he sitting there and he's okay with all of this and it throws their game off.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, nothing pisses off some people more than just being really, well, emotionally regulated.
>> Jordan: Yes. And I mean, yeah. And, and that includes you know, trying to figure out things to better your mental health and, and deal with the stress that's involved at work. Trying to find a healthy outlet to deal with it after work. and, and healthy, that means, you know, some sports or meditation or yoga, something along those lines.
>> Myrna McCallum : Are you meditating? Are you doing like the downward dog and pigeon pose and all those things? Jordan?
>> Jordan: Well, I do like to stretch, but not meditate. So I actually consider golf to be my meditation, my, I'll say eight hours, so that my wife thinks it's, it's a really long sport. so my eight hours on the golf course, no, she knows it's a lot, shorter. But my four hours on the golf course, just being in nature, that's my, my outlet. It's obviously tough if it's, I mean, you could still go for work with colleagues or with opposing counsel, with, service providers, but being out there is sort of my outlet and, and how I deal with that day to day stress. Obviously it's tough in the winter, but, I'll play some other sports and, and hang out with family and friends.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, it's like, I'm sure it could be like a Zen space. I mean, I have no idea. I got no interest in golf, but, from what I hear, people say,
>> Jordan: people are on this, are going to say, wait, golf, Zen sport, It's the most frustrating sport I've ever played.
>> Myrna McCallum : I'm sure, I'm sure. But a lot more healthier than just going to the bar.
>> Jordan: Exactly.
>> Myrna McCallum : or going to the liquor store and getting another bottle of whatever your drink of choice is. Which is what, at least in my experience when I was a litigator far too often that was the, that was the unwind practice. That was the. Where you found community was always around a bottle of alcohol. And I mean, that's why these like, wine and cheese things are popular.
>> Jordan: but I'm not going to sit here and say I do not indulge in that. but I think it's about just finding that balance.
>> Myrna McCallum : Well, we're talking about coping, right? We're talking about coping mechanisms. And so that was my experience when I was litigating was that was how people were unwinding. That's how they were coping. I mean, I think it's one thing, I guess if you drink alcohol because it's social, a social thing, you like to, socially whatever. But if it's your primary means to like, unwind from your day. Well, there's a lot of days that lawyers need to unwind from. So it can like pretty quickly become a problem. And and a moderate coping mechanism could become a super unhealthy coping mechanism. So just an FYI for folks who are listening, I just want you to reflect on how do you cope? How are you unwinding? What is your practice? Because we all need something. And to be fair, I think it's the human condition. Some of us lean to some unhealthy things and then we lean to healthy things, like. But it's always being able to strike balance and not leaning too far one way or the other. But, lately.
>> Jordan: Agree with you.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah. Awesome. I like it when people agree with me, Jordan. It just makes my life easier. I was thinking about what you were saying about emotional intelligence and like picking all this up and how it's for your benefit. The other thing I just, I really want listeners to understand as I'm learning about emotional intelligence, as I learn about trauma, informed practice and and you know, all the ways in which really the brain drives so much of our behavior, the way in which we communicate. What I think is also really important to understand and to embrace is that according to this psychiatrist named Dan Siegel, we all have a window of tolerance. The window of tolerance being like the space in which you live where like, you're not rattled and you're calm, you're cool, you're collected, you're rational, you can make good decisions. Right? you're a good communicator. Hopefully right now everyone listening is in their window. Jordan and I, I hope we're in our windows. But what happens is when we become dysregulated, emotionally dysregulated, our prefrontal cortex is shrinking, our amygdala is firing, and we go into hyper arousal, so fighting flight or hypoarousal, which is freeze font. So we go into whether we want to call it your trauma response, your stress response. What happens when we're in those places is we're no longer clear headed, we're no longer calm, we're no longer rational, we're no longer good decision makers, good communicators. And there are a number of psychologists who have said, when you're in those states, that is not the time to be asking people to give evidence, to make decisions, to expect them to be focused and rational, because their, their amygdala and their prefrontal cortex is not allowing for that to happen. And so one of the ways in which we as lawyers can help people is by being simply in that Window of tolerance ourselves because of mirror neurons. Right. We tend to mirror each other. It's a, subconscious, unconscious thing. And so if I'm all worked up about something and Jordan, you remain totally calm and you talk to me in a really calm way in a calm tone. I mean, people do this in de escalation all the time. It will likely have an effect of calming me down so then I can have a conversation and I can start breathing again and I can like focus on what you're saying. And so you don't get there. If you yourself are not an emotionally regulated person and you don't, I think, get to emotional regulation if you, you don't have a self awareness practice, a self reflection practice and get really clear on the things that throw you out of your window, like your triggers.
>> Jordan: And that's completely something that you need to prepare your clients for as well. I mean, I don't. I say this lightly because there's a part that, you know, if I'm in the middle of a cross examination, I might want that witness to be unregulated so that it benefits my client in my case. but that other way around is you want to make sure that your clients and your witnesses don't get there. So it's understanding what coping mechanisms and trying to inform them and educate them on those windows and where is that sort of sweet spot for them and how not to get angry and, and that's part of that, making sure they're aware of what could come. The, the more you prepare them, the more likely you're not going to see the witnesses in those situations.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, totally, totally. And I know so many litigators whose sole objective is to just rattle cages everywhere they go, because if they can get you so dysregulated that you tell people to off or you shut down or you just give in and go like, whatever you say, well, then you immediately are effective. You can check a box and go, okay, I did exactly what I needed to do today for this case, for my client. Because now you look unreliable. You look, that you're like, you're lacking credibility.
>> Jordan: Yeah, exactly. Because the way that you're portraying yourself. And even if you might want to take that angle of sort of hostility, the judge or jury might not like the way that you are approaching that witness. So you've got to be able to understand and, and really gauge what is that? What's the jury thinking? What does the jury want to see here? But. Or what does that judge want to see?
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, yeah, I Like that. Okay, so tell me a little bit about Ukraine Airlines. Tell us a little bit about how, how, how was it that the conversation of trauma informed guidelines entered the realm of, litigation.
>> Jordan: That particular matter, I will give all the credit to Justice Akbaralli, and her initiative and her request that as much as we all prepare for this trial and prepare our witnesses and prepare our evidence, prepare our documents, one thing that was a major focus that she asked right at the outset was to have a trauma informed approach and prepare something for both the court, the court staff, the lawyers, as well as all of the clients. So two separate trauma, informed approaches. And that was the triggering for this trauma informed approach, which was an eye opener to see that the courts are looking at something, at this approach. And I mean it went a long way because of how sad of a case this is. And to have a judge show that empathy and emotional intelligence and understanding that this is going to be extremely re. Traumatizing and to have that as a focus and a mandate written into the endorsement at the pre trial conference, you know, that's something that I almost like to see a lot of judges do. So I took on that role on behalf of the group of council. Everybody sort of took on something and part of mine was to develop the trauma informed guidelines. I of course could not have done it myself and consulted Eden Dales, ah, an excellent social worker who speaks a lot on trauma informed and has develop material to assist. So with her expertise and her assistance, she provided and came up with approaches to benefit the court, to benefit the staff, to benefit the lawyers, and to use that approach when preparing our clients, preparing the witnesses and advising the court and preparing the staff. So it was nice that it was something that we had to do before the trial and incorporated in the trial. But it didn't just stop at, okay, let's prepare this material. It's I want to see what you've done. I want you to present that at the outset of trial and I also want you to make sure that any crisis numbers or any assistance that you can provide to the clients during this process is posted on the court wall. So right as soon as you walk into the court doors, you see this trauma informed approach and resources for any of those observers or clients that were watching this trial. Now, the trial was both in person and virtual, so we also had to post it in the zoom chat. That and Justice Akbarali made sure that every single day people were aware of the locations of this information in case they were going through these crises and needed help, whether it was during or after. But she also read the material and used the suggestions in the material throughout her trial.
>> Jordan: When advising everybody. For example, here's what we're going to talk about next. Here's what you're going to see. I understand this can hurt. If you need to take a break, you can take a break. And it was something that was so evident throughout the entire three weeks of trial.
>> Myrna McCallum : Wow. what was the impact, like, what was the impact on you? What was the, the impact on others in that space that you were able to witness or observe?
>> Jordan: So, one thing with this trial, it was a liability only trial. And with that there was only one family member, that had provided evidence. And when we developed this trauma informed approach, the one thing you saw was the defense lawyer for Ukraine Airlines did not cross examine that witness. And that's where you're like, you know what this trauma informed approach is trickling down to, from the judge, all the way down to the staff, to the lawyers, to opposing counsel. When opposing counsel is taking a trauma informed approach and having that empathy, understanding what that client's going through, that's what really was an eye opener to see. You know what? I'm so glad everybody was able to use this.
>> Myrna McCallum : Let me ask this question because any defense lawyers who are listening to this now would go, what, like, does it. What are you saying, Jordan? To be trauma informed defense lawyers don't cross examine.
>> Jordan: No. Pick and choose what you're going to do, understand what that person's gone through and think about how far is that cross examination going to go. What are you going to get out of putting someone who has lived through one of the most traumatic events of their entire life? What are you going to do by questioning them or contradicting them? is the evidence that they're providing enough and are there other ways that you could possibly bring out some credibility issues or anything that you're looking for at the cross examination? Are there other ways that you can do it? So it's not just, you know, don't cross examine and that's what you got to do. it's just taking a strategic approach to it, but understanding that everybody in that courtroom has feelings. And as much as you are representing somebody, you're also dealing with somebody that you don't know how far what you're doing could lead. What happens if, God forbid, you've re traumatized that person so badly that they go off and do something that you're completely unexpecting them to do, but they do it because of the actions that you've taken. So all it is is just think about it, you know, what benefit is that going to do? Of course, sometimes you do have to, I'm not saying don't, but in this case, it was something that the defense lawyer, opposing counsel realized. Where is the benefit going to be to that? You know, we've got to argue the liability. Understanding what someone heard on the ground at the time or through a text message. Okay, the evidence is there. It's not going to change. You don't need to impeach their credibility, or you don't need to impeach them in any way, move on with the case and fight your liability. So, kudos to Clay Hunter for, for how he handled himself and Andrew, defense lawyers at Ukraine Airlines. Kudos to them on how they did approach that, witness.
>> Myrna McCallum : And that's really interesting to hear and that's awesome and it's hopeful. Tell me, how did you, like when you were given this instruction, what steps did you take then to connect with a social worker? Because recognizing, okay, we're kind of out of our depth here as lawyers, what expertise do we, or do we require would we benefit from? And then ident, like first and then identifying that person, then building that relationship. How did you go about it?
>> Jordan: I think I got really lucky. And I say that because it was brought to my attention through the other practice areas in our firm. And it was brought to our attention by Charles Gluckstein and Simona Yellenik here, who wanted, wanted to teach the lawyers about having a trauma informed approach, but also the entire staff. So about a year before the trial, we had, Eden, the social worker had come to our office to do presentations, which then led to additional webinars on trauma informed lawyering and taking a trauma informed approach. So that's how I say it was really easy to figure out who to go to, because of the experience and being in front of that already. so it is one of the reasons why I sort of spearheaded that, knowing. But I think it also assisted in developing my trauma informed approach too. Because as much as you sit there through a webinar, this was actually getting into the nitty gritty of developing something for the court and for everybody to use during this trial.
>> Myrna McCallum : Have you heard any feedback on, on the way in which you did what you did in that particular case from anyone, whether it's other members of the bar, the judiciary, your colleagues, I mean, your own reflection? What has come from that
>> Jordan: clients were extremely appreciative. Those that were listening on zoom, or were in the courtroom for the appropriate approach that was taken and thanked us all for that approach. And I think that was something that, you know, went right to my heart. And it was like, you know what, we're not only here advocating for them, but they could see that we know what they're going through and we're doing everything we can to try not have them relive that situation the best we can, or at least provide them with enough tools and information to cope with understanding the possibility of being re traumatized. I had somebody actually reached out to me from another conference, after Justice A spoke at a CLE and another lawyer had reached out saying, oh, Justice Aureli mentioned that you had actually developed this trauma informed guidelines for the trial. Are you able to share them? So I think her ability to bring this trauma informed approach to cles and speak to other lawyers about it was certainly one of the driving forces that brought that attention on. but it also led us to realize, you know what, you're seeing it popping up everywhere. you know, I go on LinkedIn quite a bit and I, A lot of lawyers are taking a trauma informed approach. You're seeing actually their LinkedIn name changing from, you know, personal injury lawyer to trauma informed Lawyer. so I think it's really starting to at least hit the personal injury bar. and as well, in fact, I was at a class action conference the other day and was approached by a claims administrator. they want to start taking a trauma informed approach to administering those claims at the conclusion or resolution or settlement of a class action. When a lot of those class members have gone through a lot of trauma. And just even calling up to get compensation can be re traumatizing. So making sure that every single person along the way takes that trauma informed approach. And I, I just think that it's, I mean I'm, I'm smiling because I, I see that, you know, it's going further than that Ukraine Airlines trial. and it's really nice to see and I do give all the credit to Justice Akbarrelli for, making us take that approach in developing this.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, no kidding. I wish more judges would do the very same thing. And, recognizing that the systems that we've inherited, I mean, they only stay dehumanizing and traumatizing because we've refused to change and adapt and grow and introduce new principles and concepts and maybe like guiding, I don't know, new values like adopt Values that expand like beyond what, what these. Like, like the colonial system that we've inherited. Anyway, for lack of a better thank you.
>> Jordan: I was trying to think of a polite way to say,
>> Myrna McCallum : this is really awesome. And I mean, and I really love hearing your observations that more lawyers are shifting their practice and shifting how they promote themselves to reflect this like, piece of humanity like that. We as lawyers, we're human beings doing a job, working with other human beings. And anytime humans are working together, there's going to be pain, suffering, some, some degree of emotional management or relationship management that's expected. So being trauma informed, being culturally responsive, being emotionally intelligent, all these things are going to help you. They'll help you and how you live your life, how you enter relationships, how you leave relationships, how you manage clients, how you respond to opposing counsel, how you manage the court, because sometimes the court can't manage themselves. And so it's, it's like, it's a, it's a gift that keeps on giving and giving and giving. And so let me ask you this. This, Jordan. How has this experience and this new knowledge on top of like your, your exposure already to emotional intelligence, how will it inform how you practice going forward?
>> Jordan: I mean, you always want to try and put yourself in, in your clients shoes to really understand what they're going through. But I think what this is doing is, it's really giving me a, a better understanding on almost how to deal with anything that's coming my way. with all of these different tools that you can learn, you can also assist your clients too. And I think there, it's almost like, oh, you know, thanks for advocating for me, but thanks for listening. thanks for being there. Thanks for more than just being a lawyer. And I don't think that a lot of people see that. And I think that's something that's starting to develop in, in my practice. and it's just nice to see that, that clients are receptive to that, as well as other lawyers being receptive to it too.
>> Myrna McCallum : I want to ask you a question which you may not have the answer to, but I'm going to ask it anyway because this question comes up when I go to deliver training to lawyers. Lawyers, how do you bill for this? I mean, we live, we live in these six minute increments, right? And like I get lawyers saying, well, how do you build for, how do, how do you bill for this? Like billable hours dictates, you know, our lives from the time we wake up till we go to sleep. some Lawyers will say, and so how do you bill for, like, being empathetic or sitting and listening had, like, to stuff that isn't related to the case, Like, I'm not getting evidence. Like, how do you bill for it? I mean, I have a response to that, but what is your response?
>> Jordan: My response is it is related to the case. If you are learning or you're taking something to educate yourself, to understand how to deal with the clients, how to deal with the court, and doing that in preparation, I mean, you can bill for that. but you know, I also take a little bit of a harsher approach and say you don't bill for your cle. So why do you need to build bill to educate yourself, to better yourself. Whether it's for your practice or for you personally, and your personal or home life or friends. Why do you really need to get paid to better yourself? you should just want to do that. That so. But there is an opportunity to do it, related to your case. And you can. But, think about the broader picture, is what I would say.
>> Myrna McCallum : Awesome. Ah, awesome. Ah, that is good advice. And maybe on that we'll wrap this conversation. Is there anything, Jordan, that I didn't ask you that maybe you wanted to mention, about your work or about these principles or about, you know, the law profession generally?
>> Jordan: not. No, not really. Aside from. If you are interested in seeing the package that was developed for the Ukraine Airlines, feel free to reach out and I'd be happy to share it so that the reach can go beyond Ontario, into all of Canada. And if you have friends all over the world, let's start taking a, you know, a harder look at a trauma informed approach from, from lawyering for sure, and, and how to deal with it throughout, whether it's the court system, the clients, I mean, the staff.
>> Myrna McCallum : I do have friends. I do have friends all over the world. I want to just like, say that, like, people who listen to this podcast listen from all over the world, Jordan. I mean, I don't know, let's get
>> Jordan: this trauma informed approach going through the world. And I've got some material for those that want to reach out to me.
>> Myrna McCallum : Right, totally. And I mean, that's what the Justice Is Trauma conference is about. Like, there are folks coming from Ireland and Scotland, New Zealand, Australia, Brazil. So I mean, folks are coming from everywhere because they're recognizing we need to do more, be better, be better for ourselves. Also, like, you and I haven't even talked about, like, the adverse impact on our psychological Health as lawyers, when we don't understand trauma, when we don't integrate emotional intelligence into our practice, when we don't cultivate compassion and empathy for ourselves, for each other. I mean, this is something.
>> Jordan: I've got those stories too
>> Myrna McCallum : right? Like, this is something that I like to quote the Mandalorian. This is the way. The way. This is the way. So, but yes, for folks who want to learn more about Jordan and about his work on the Ukraine Airlines case in the show Notes, I'm going to put links to Gluckstein and to the case and to all kinds of things. Anything you want to send me, Jordan, I can link up on the show Notes and I'll also put a link to the conference because Jordan's going to be there speaking. So if you want to see him in person, you want to talk to him
>> Jordan: March 19th, 10:30.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah. Wednesday, March 19th, 10:30, Vancouver Convention Center. Come hang out, come hope to see
>> Jordan: everybody there in person and finally meet you in person too.
>> Myrna McCallum : I know it's going to be awesome. It's going to be great. and for folks who are like, where else can we get resources? I want to say for sure, contact Jordan because he's invited that in terms of like, how you begin to collaborate with social workers and mental health practitioners and like the real, like the experts who have like, built trauma informed care models. But also there's a book out there that I co edited that the American Bar association published called Trauma Informed Law, a Pathway to Lawyer Healing and Resilience. Like, like that's out there. You can get it now on Amazon. Listen to the Trauma Informed Lawyer podcast. There's so many lawyers, psychologists, judges on this podcast. They're all like these like bits of wisdom that everyone is offering. So it's an educational resource. It's here for you. So open your ears, open your eyes and, read a book, listen to a podcast, put down your phone, stop watching TikTok for a while. And that's advice I got to give myself back. Thank you so much.
>> Jordan: I don't even have the tick tock.
>> Myrna McCallum : Thank you, Jordan.
>> Jordan: Thank you. I really appreciate you having me on and, and you know, all the credit to you for all the work you've done, in the, to the trauma informed field and, and the other work that you've done. And I, I look forward to meeting you and, and speaking, on this amazing panel.
>> Myrna McCallum : That's today's show, folks. If you want to learn more about Jordan and his work work, check out gluckstein.com specifically, check out their news site. Jordan has a blog there where he talks about his work on this Ukraine Airlines case. He also talks about Justice Akbarelli, being the one who said to council, like, there's got to be a better way that we could do this that isn't going to be so re. Traumatizing, because it's already a traumatic case as it is. And so this is what I think the world needs. This is what, what cases need. We all need to be of one mind and recognize that there's a way to still deliver justice that doesn't do more harm. Right?
>> Myrna McCallum : Right. If you want to hear more from Jordan, he's going to be presenting at my conference, justice is Trauma, next week in Vancouver. You might still be able to score a ticket. You could check out Myrna McCallum co. Otherwise, follow me on Instagram at the Trauma Informed Lawyer. You can also follow me on LinkedIn. Connect with me. There's I'm not on Twitter. Slash X. I'm not on Facebook. If you have any feedback for me, you can leave me feedback on social media. You can also please leave me a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. All right, folks, thanks for tuning in. Thanks for supporting the Trauma Informed Lawyer podcast. And until next time, take care of yourselves.