This truth and reconciliation episode with my daughter, Alicia, and Dr. Judy Jaunzems-Fernuk, is inspired by a recent event which transpired at a local Women of Distinction awards ceremony in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.
This truth and reconciliation episode with my daughter, Alicia, and Dr. Judy Jaunzems-Fernuk, is inspired by a recent event which transpired at a local Women of Distinction awards ceremony in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.
>> Myrna McCallum: Myrna McCallum Metis, Cree lawyer and passionate promoter of Trauma Informed Lawyering. Welcome back to the Trauma Informed Lawyer podcast, folks. Season two. I believe that law schools and bar courses are missing a critical competency requirement in their curriculum. Trauma Informed Lawyering behavior. Becoming a Trauma Informed Lawyer will, among other things, challenge you to critically reflect on your personal behaviors, beliefs and biases call on you to positively transform the way you approach advocacy, guide your practice to avoid doing further harm to others and ask that you commit to remaining open to learn new and old knowledge you didn't know you needed before beginning your career. Your education starts right here, right now. This podcast comes to you from the traditional unceded territories of the Squamish, Sleil-Waututh and Musqueam People.
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>> Myrna McCallum: Welcome back to another episode of the Trauma Informed Lawyer podcast. I have a treat for you folks today. My daughter is one of my guests on the podcast. Alicia Hrbachek is the owner and operator of Ally's Creative Bake Shop in Saskatoon, formerly Ally's Cake Creations. And she just founded a non profit organization called the Creeative foundation. And that's creative with two e's. And yeah, so that's kind of a treat that's never happened before. We also have Dr. Judy Jaunzems Fernuk Judy, is a mother, an educator, a mental health practitioner in Saskatoon. She is a lecturer at the University of Saskatchewan. And I was looking at her bio. There's a lot of info there. But she's pretty amazing. She does a lot of different things. she's really created community, particularly on Instagram. I'm not on like Facebook or the other platforms, so I'm sure she's got community there too. But, yeah, you have to check her out today. The reason these two are, on my podcast is because I decided to invite the man to talk about truth and reconciliation. There was like a whole issue that came up involving YWCA Saskatoon and their Women of Distinction awards. And in a nutshell, my daughter was, had been nominated in the reconciliation category along with another individual with Metis ancestry and, a duo that are non Indigenous It was the first time the YWCA Saskatoon had apparently had a reconciliation category in their Women of Distinction event. In any event, it was the non Indigenous duo that received the award. And I had an issue with that for all kinds of reasons. And I wrote a letter, an open letter to the YWCA. If you want to read it, go to LinkedIn, go to Instagram, you can find it there. And when I did that and I started to speak out about what truth and reconciliation should mean to leadership organizations like the YWCA Saskatoon, some people started to, you know, participate in that conversation, including Judy, who took it upon herself to also write a letter to the YWCA Saskatoon and invite them to reconsider how they approach, this conversation and create space for this category within their Women of Distinction events. And, you know, as of today's date, which is May 30th, I haven't heard anything. I don't believe anyone else has either. Nonetheless, I thought, you know, we're having this really interesting conversation online. It's a good time to talk about truth and Reconciliation and the 94 calls to action, why that was established and what people can do, Indigenous and non Indigenous and have a conversation about how we feel about non Indigenous people receiving awards and reconciliation and whether that's cool or not or what. And so, you know, I had some opinions that that differed maybe from Judy and, Alicia, but it was a good conversation. And I think a lot of folks, and organizations that are grappling with advancing reconciliation and figuring out how to do it in a way that's respectful, how to do it in a way that uplifts Indigenous people, this is an episode you're not going to want to miss. And I think the timing of it is great because here in Canada, National Indigenous Peoples Day is coming up on June 21st. So it's right around the corner. And it's always in Canada, it's June and September where we have National Truth and Reconciliation Day. It gets people thinking and talking about things like reconciliation and decolonization and what it means to be an ally. And, you know, it was really courageous and awesome of Judy to show up for this conversation, to lend her voice to allyship and what does that mean? And it was awesome. So I hope all listeners hear this, podcast and m receive it in the spirit it was intended to be shared with you, which is only good things, right? Like, this is a teachable learning moment for big and small organizations, Indigenous and non alike. And I really, you know, hope that you enjoy this very candid and courageous conversation. By the way, I have to mention for all my Indigenous professionals out there, I have created a Love Back Chorus. the agenda is online. You can find it at Myrna McCollum co. Loveback registration has been going really well and the course is almost full, but we have a few spaces. So if you're interested in attending, get, in touch with Jennifer. you can reach her@jennifer myrnamaccollum co. If you want more info on the Love Back Chorus, like I said, go to my website. If you are a corporate sponsor organization Somebody who wants to support Indigenous healing, success, advanced reconciliation, contribute to this, this course. We need sponsors. We need, we need folks to, you know, just show up and help, help offset some of the costs for, some Indigenous professionals that are coming from across Canada who don't necessarily have PD funds and may need some support with accommodations and travel, as well as topping up their, registration fee. Mind you, we have a sliding scale. You support me supporting others. this is what the Love Back movement is all about. Get in touch with Jennifer. Jennifer Myrna McCollum co. Okay, now it's time for this episode. I hope you enjoy it.
>> Myrna McCallum : All right, we have a really special episode of the Trauma Informed Lawyer podcast for everybody today. We have two very special guests. The first is Dr. Judy Jaunzems Furnick, and she is a mother, educator, mental health practitioner located just outside of Saskatoon, Treaty 6 territory, homeland of the Metis. My people. And my kid is on the podcast. Well, I guess she's not a kid, she's an adult, but to me, she is still a kid. Alicia, well, people know her as Ally Hrbachek She's the owner, operator of Ally's Cake Creations. But you will hear me repeatedly refer to her as Alicia, which is the name I gave her when she was born. today we're going to talk about some reconciliation and some recent happenings that occurred, in the city of Saskatoon after a YWCA Women of Distinction award ceremony event. My daughter was nominated in the reconciliation category, as was another Indigenous woman, and a non Indigenous duo, received the award. And that kind of set me off a little bit for all kinds of reasons. And I started posting things on social media. And then, Judy came in and also started to support and wrote her own letter to the YWCA, as did I. And, we're going to talk a little bit about that. But this episode, the show isn't about the ywca. It's, it's really about truth and reconciliation and what you can do to advance that and what we can do and how do we respect each other as we do this work and who do we uplift and highlight when this work is done? So, who wants to. Do you want to start first, my girl and talk a little bit about this Women of Distinction award?
>> Ally Hrbachek: I was nominated under the Truth and Reconciliation category for the Women of Distinction, hosted by the Y. I was looking forward to this award and I had not known of any of the people that I was going against. So the other nominees, which is Carm, Tracy and Pam, I did not in the initial stages of the conference know the background of the other people who had been nominated in the same category. And honestly, it wasn't until, Carmen Tracy had gone up to the podium to accept their award, where in their thank you speeches, kind of went into their lineage and their immigration to, into Canada that I really, it clicked in for me that the people who were winning the Truth and Reconciliation award were not Indigenous people. Instead, it was just another set of non Indigenous women benefiting from this token term of truth and reconciliation. So it was there that I was made aware of some things and I just shared my feelings on social media. And it was with the validation of you especially that I realized that with what I was feeling was legitimate. It wasn't some sort of bitter, you lost sentiment that the Y kind of shaped it out to be. When they had reached out after a few social media postings had been public, it was honestly just a hurtful, a hurtful moment that I had just made really public because I thought in true spirit of truth and reconciliation, the award would have gone to someone who had been Indigenous
>> Myrna McCallum : Let me ask you this. How, how was it that you, were even nominated for Reconciliation Award?
>> Ally Hrbachek: The person who had nominated me, Kelsey Murphy, she said when she had filled out the application, there were, a checkbox of options in the categories you consent to being nominated in. So, initially I think that I had, I was nominated for the Community Builder Award, and then Truth and Reconciliation was the second or third option that was clicked off on my application. And then it was there that the committee made the designation of me being slotted into the Truth and Reconciliation phase, which was kind of weird in and of itself because it's a brand new award. I didn't even know that was really on the table. And then also they didn't even inform me correctly when they had announced the nomination. It was only once it was public in the paper and at the meet and greet that I was slotted for the Truth and Reconciliation category.
>> Myrna McCallum : Okay, well, I understand that that's kind of wonky. okay, Judy, let's go over to you and, and you tell us a little bit about like how you've come to this conversation.
>> Dr. Judy Johnson-Fernick: I come to this conversation as an ally and I feel like, you know, I have power and privilege in this conversation, because of my lineage. And I think it was Toni Morrison maybe that said, when you have power and privilege, you should work to empower others. And so I come to this conversation because it came to my attention from your posting on Facebook. Myrna. That an injustice was done. And the injustice was not that two necessarily that two non Indigenous women won an award. The injustice was that the YWCA, I think, failed to see why it would be important to define this committee and this award with the truth and reconciliation in mind. I wrote the letter to call attention to what truth and reconciliation means. And it means to honor the past. It means to work towards healing. It means to honor the truth about the past and the necessary healing, offer apology and address, the harm that was done to Indigenous people. And for this award category to be given to non Indigenous people, I feel goes against everything that the truth and reconciliation stands for, which is uplifting voices, restoring relationship, supporting healing. So that's why I'm here. I was deeply concerned that an organization like the YWCA m allowed this to happen. And I wanted to speak to some of the foundational elements of truth and reconciliation and what it means certainly to myself, as a Canadian with a responsibility. And so, yeah, I landed here with that letter as a result.
>> Myrna McCallum : Okay, well, thanks for that context. And so, I mean, so listeners know, like Judy wrote a letter to the YWCA, I wrote a letter to the ywca. And I just want to be really clear for everyone listening this conversation or this, call in or call out, whatever you want to call it with the YWCA, Saskatoon isn't about the folks who won the award. This is not about them. This is not saying they don't deserve it, they didn't earn it, they shouldn't be awarded anything, they shouldn't be wrecked. This is not about them. And, and this is not about Alicia being some sore loser who is like, oh, I now want to cry about this. This is not about that. This is about, in my mind, this is about an organization, the ywca. YWCA Saskatoon, who, as far as I could tell from my own lived experience, having lived in Saskatoon, to see who YWCA serves for the most part, from what I could see is predominantly impoverished Indigenous people who are experiencing abuse or fleeing violence or just really needing social supports. And for an organization that has created women of Distinction awards that are intended to uplift and honor women, then to create an award that centers reconciliation, I thought it's a no brainer that they're going to recognize and uplift an Indigenous woman.
>> Myrna McCallum : Why?
>> Myrna McCallum : Because not enough organizations do that. Also because murdered and missing Indigenous women and girls in this country and in the United States is like an epidemic.
>> Myrna McCallum : Why?
>> Myrna McCallum : Because, stereotypes need to be flipped on Its head. People have a certain view when they hear Indigenous women and it certainly isn't in a leaders, leadership position, award winning, successful business owners, entrepreneurs, change makers, community builders. People certainly don't think those things when, when they think Indigenous women. And I just thought this was a no brainer. I was like this is awesome. The YWCA Saskatoon is going to finally, you know, create a category that recognizes the resilience and the success of an Indigenous woman. This is amazing. I really hope my kid gets it or the other Indigenous candidate gets it. I didn't even think about the duo because I just thought no, like no, no, can't be. And I even told my kid, I was like, no, like it's, you know, like whoever gets it, you or Pam, it's going to be great. And I never thought that they would select a non Indigenous duo who, if, if I got it right, they do this work as part of their corporate duties, corporate responsibilities as an organization. Whereas Indigenous people, we do this because it's an inherited burden that we have no choice but to advance reconciliation in some shape or form. It's not a thing we can clock out of Fridays at 5:00'. Clock. so I thought it was a no brainer and anyway I guess not. And you know, that's where all of this is coming from. So I want to be clear with listeners. Alicia.
>> Ally Hrbachek: I thought it was also pretty interesting that first off even a duo couldn't go in on one nomination together. You know, I felt like it was kind of like a modern day form of oppression when you think about it like if you remove that, that other counterpart with that one woman had even qualified in this category alone, you know, to a warrant even being nominated in this category. So two non Indigenous women won over two Indigenous women. I just thought like that right there in and of itself is such a powerful symbol. It come, it sends out a huge message. And you know, considering that the Y is so well known, recognized, respected in our community, it's just sending out the wrong message. And not that I think the category is horrible, I definitely just don't think that it was well thought out. The guidelines obviously hadn't been changed. The way in which they selected the winner for this category was flawed. And you know, I really think that the why missed the mark when it came to this category in and of itself. So you know, with me and all of the people who are supporting the things that we're standing up for and speaking out against, I just hope that it causes and inspires people to really think about who's sitting in the room, who makes these decisions. What are you standing up for? What are you trying to get across? You know, who are you really looking out for?
>> Dr. Judy Johnson-Fernick: Yeah, the why itself shapes public perceptions. They are, as an entity, a role model. And if you go to the YWCA website, it says something right up front like, uplifting women or empowering women's voices. And going back to the goal and role of the Truth and reconciliation, commission and calls to action. It's all about uplifting and hearing Indigenous voices. So you take those two separate entities and you put them together. We should be celebrating Indigenous women's voices with this award. And so my call to action would be to revisit that as a mistake that that wasn't done. And with the information that we've all put forward and anyone else who's writing letters has put forward, it doesn't take much of a deep dive to go into the truth and reconciliation calls to action. I'm thinking of 92 right off the top of my head with respect to businesses and, empowering and supporting Indigenous Voice, that they would be able to come to the same conclusion that, you know, I came to or you came to on the matter.
>> Myrna McCallum : I mean, I really love, Judy, the letter that you put together, because, man, you did work like an academic on that letter. You already, like, dived into. I'm going to educate you right now. And I was like, way to go, Judy. But, like, I have no capacity for that because, like, there are endless reports and websites and resources for these folks to educate themselves. I ain't gonna do it. But you already gave them a leg up, so kudos to you for doing that. I want to say in my letter, I'm just going to read an excerpt. this is what I was asking of them. I said I'm genuinely curious as to your rationale and approach on this decision and your decision to include non Indigenous women in this category. I would like to know whom your reconciliation category is intended to recognize, honor and uplift. How the award recipients are selected and by whom. Who authorizes the awards committee, members and process, and what criteria makes a nominee worthy of receiving an award in your reconciliation category. The question underlying all of this inquiry is something every organization should be asking themselves, especially a leading organization like the YWCA Saskatoon. What does reconciliation mean to you? And that was a genuine question. Why? Because I had scanned their website to look for a statement, because a lot of corporations now have a statement on reconciliation. I could not find one. And I also said I'd also like to know how your selection of the award recipients furthers your reconciliation objectives, if you have any. I don't even know that they have any because I couldn't see anything. I even looked into their, like, last annual report of the board, and I saw nothing there. So I also looked at the board members, and I don't see a lot of Indigenous representation. Let me just say.
>> Dr. Judy Johnson-Fernick: I was just thinking, as you said there, I cited a few people and the article by Tuck and Yang was one of them. And going back, Eve Tuck wrote about, I don't know, 10 or 15 years ago, I think they called it damage centered research. And this, what you were just saying, reminds me of that work, that this is damage centered activism, meaning that, you know, harm came out of this work and now it's been brought to their attention. And I strongly urge the YWCA to respond to that.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yes, absolutely. And can I also add, I was really pissed off when I wrote the letter, so I had to have an associate of mine, like, read it two times. because part of what angered me was not, of course, the first, what I deem an injustice and like, massive, massive oversight. but also the fact that they wrote to my kid the next day, to go, oh, like, oh, I hear you're really disappointed. I was like, what the hell? I'm the one who was out there front and center making an issue. I'm easy to find. Nobody wrote to me. Alicia didn't raise an issue with, with the board, with the CEO, with the, vp. They, they just identified her and decided to write her this horrible, patronizing email.
>> Ally Hrbachek: Yeah. If there's one thing that I, I really hope to see come out of this, though, with all of the letters and the show of support and the posts on social media, it's not even like a one on, one apology to me or to Pam. Like, in true spirit of this truth and reconciliation movement that I feel like is going on now, I feel like, honestly, after all of this, I really feel like this term truth and reconciliation is more harmful than good at this point. Like, I love how people are becoming aware of the truth of Indigenous people in Canada, but we're still very much in the truth aspect. You know, there's no reconciliation happening yet. It's still going to be a long, long process for generations to come to fully come back, if we ever do, from what had occurred. So when it comes to the why, I would just like to see them recognize what they did was flawed. There was error. It was, it did more harm than good. And they just need to promise to do better because that's all we can do as a, people, an organization trying to make a better and safer space and place in our world and especially in our community.
>> Myrna McCallum : Like, are we saying that non Indigenous people should not be receiving truth and reconciliation awards? The Truth and reconciliation awards are for Indigenous people only.
>> Ally Hrbachek: In true spirit of truth and reconciliation designation awards, I feel like it should go to Indigenous people only. The only reason that truth and reconciliation was a category was because of the things that had happened in the past. However, I do feel like allies definitely should still get recognition. It's with their hard work, determination, perseverance, that we can continuously start to improve as a community. I think they deserve recognition. Maybe, but like under a category of like allyship or whatever, it might be truth and reconciliation though, specifically.
>> Myrna McCallum : No. Okay. How about you, Judy?
>> Dr. Judy Johnson-Fernick: Yeah, I tend to agree with Ally because this is, this is big picture. This is systemic. Like if we think to anti racist work around accepting the fact that we've all been raised in a society that elevates white culture over other cultures automatically, you know, the, the award category was a competition. It, it pitted non Indigenous against Indigenous and that is, that is antithetical to reconciliation. And so I think inherently and systemically speaking that process, that category, that award is problematic and exactly what Ally is saying. Potentially there should be allyship recognition, and truth and reconciliation recognition for the hard work that Indigenous people don't have a choice but to, to face and be a part of. And I think it is problematic that we celebrated non Indigenous people for that work on May 25th.
>> Myrna McCallum : I mean, I agree that it is problematic that the YWCA Saskatoon celebrated non Indigenous people when they had Indigenous people running for the same in the same category. now I think I, I divert a little bit from the, what the two of you have said because I mean, I said on LinkedIn, something about how, you know, I said I don't have a problem with non Indigenous people receiving awards for truth and reconciliation. And then somebody had responded to my post on LinkedIn and said I really don't like non Indigenous people getting reconciliation awards because it seems directly in opposition to what the TRC and calls to action are all about. And I just said look, I think reconciliation is responsibility that we all have as Canadians. So you know, if some people get awarded for it, great. Who are not Indigenous I said my, my issue, one of my issues is that Indigenous people Though we don't get to choose to do this work. It's a generational. It's now a generational burden that we carry. whereas non Indigenous people, they can choose to do this work. Like, I could go work at like, X organization and, oh, it becomes one of my portfolios or one of my projects. And then when I leave that job and I go work in another place, maybe they have work that has nothing to do with reconciliation. So I could just drop it. Indigenous people, we don't get to drop reconciliation. Like, it follows us like a cranky spirit everywhere we go. And, when I responded to say, you know, I'm okay with people getting awards, this individual replied back to me with something really legit. She said, I don't like the white saviorism idea being perpetuated. Plus, I know very problematic folks in organizations who have been getting awards for their work on reconciliation and diversity work. So it seems politicized in my opinion and experience. I worked in education for over a decade, so I, I see how they are constantly marginalizing Indigenous people in all levels and systems. And I'm like, that's legit. I hear that. I see. Alicia, you had your hand up.
>> Ally Hrbachek: Yeah. One thing I really wanted to press is, like, when the committee had chosen who was going to win the Truth and Reconciliation award, I don't know exactly how their scoring criteria worked, but Pam and I, as, the two other obviously Indigenous the two people Indigenous in that nomination category, we didn't even list all of the ways we stood for truth and reconciliation. That wasn't even mentioned in our bio whatsoever. Like, I just, I'm gonna pull it up and I'm going to check to make sure that that's an accurate statement. But I know in my bio I didn't even touch on the ways I advance Truth and reconciliation.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, because that wasn't the category you were initially, nominated for.
>> Ally Hrbachek: No, but like, yeah, I know, I wasn't nominated, like, initially nominated in it for, but truth and reconciliation, just because I am an Indigenous woman making positive change in my community is something I just inherently slotted into because of who I am and what I was born into. It wasn't a category I could just going willingly check off for fun and then type up a few sentences to say that, oh, yeah, this is how. This is all the things that I did for a certain group of people. You know, I don't know, that part was just really frustrating and not at all a way in which I padded my application in order to win in that category whatsoever.
>> Myrna McCallum : So I'm hearing you say that you made no mention of your TRC work.
>> Ally Hrbachek: Not a single mention.
>> Myrna McCallum : Not a single mention. Which is like highly problematic for all kinds of reasons because like, if the award winners were applying solely in that category and like propped up their application to highlight, we've done this and this and this. And you don't even know that that's the category you're being defaulted or slotted into. And you said nothing about your work or your connection to indigeneity or the fact that you're the child of a residential school survivor or any of it. Like that is problematic.
>> Ally Hrbachek: Yeah, I really feel like I was slotted into that category because I'm just another brown face tokenism. Absolutely.
>> Myrna McCallum : Well, I want to say before we continue this conversation, we are not speaking on behalf, behalf of Pam Larson. We haven't spoken to her. We haven't, she's not, we are not speaking on her behalf. We have no idea what her opinions and views are. And we are definitely not suggesting that anything we're talking about is a reflection of her views or opinions or experience. This is just how we are experiencing this conversation, and this, this experience. So let me ask, Judy, like, what do you think? I know that some of like what you said on social media centered a little bit around like, if I have it right, a little bit about like repair and allowing people to be called in for conversation. Make things like, like learn, reflect, repair, acknowledge. What do you think not just the YWCA Saskatoon can do, but like anytime anyone messes up, in something like this, like, what do you think needs to happen?
>> Dr. Judy Johnson-Fernick: Listening more than talking when, when we do harm. And I don't even want to say purposefully versus inadvertently because it happens inadvertently all the time. We need to listen. And so repair, restitution. That happens from listening and really wholeheartedly digging deep and thinking about what I can do to fix mistakes and return stronger as a unified group. And I really see reconciliation as that. And so repair is about listening and being open to fixing mistakes.
>> Myrna McCallum : Mhm.
>> Dr. Judy Johnson-Fernick: And fixing those mistakes based on what I'm hearing from the people who were harmed, not based on what I think will fix the mistake.
>> Myrna McCallum : And would you agree, Judy, in order for the YWCA Saskatoon to repair, and engage in a listening process, I mean, if one of the Indigenous nominees stands up to say I've been harmed, like, that's enough. Because my, my fear is that, oh well, they're not all saying something, so it can't, it Must just be that one person's the problem. Hence, you know, that one, YWCA board member emailing Alicia like she's the issue. Like, what do you say to that?
>> Dr. Judy Johnson-Fernick: Yeah, if we're going to respect truth and reconciliation, we listen to every voice and we listen to every story. Just like the whole entire process when it started in 2007 for eight years, was about listening to voices and the stories and it is the individual stories that matter in this. And so one voice or 100 voices, so it's all the same.
>> Myrna McCallum : And what about you, kid? Like, what do you want to see going forward? How has this changed you in your relationship to truth and reconciliation?
>> Ally Hrbachek: honestly, these past like four days or whatever it is have been exceptionally heavy. It's made me analyze things that I haven't had to think about in such a long time. And honestly, I was in my bubble of my few supporters and, you know, people who had my back, you know, life was great. And then this whole why situation happened and it quickly reminded myself of where I live and how far we still need to come in order to be in, like a safe, respectful community altogether. So it's kind of just truth and reconciliation. It really feels like such an empty term to me right now. But I'm really grateful that I honestly have a platform and a community that cares deeply about what I have to say about certain issues. So I feel like it's a little bit of my responsibility, doing my part for my people, that I, while I have the platform and I have the voice to do all that I can to try and change things so I can create a better future for my children or my children's children. So that's, what I'm doing. I'm going to talk to anyone who listens. mind you, the work may be heavy, but down the road the benefit will be so tremendously worth it
>> Dr. Judy Johnson-Fernick: for anyone listening who wants to be an ally or an anti racist or any of those things, that that is an active process. I think of the metaphor probably because I just read a story about this with my son, about carrying a stone, but I think of the metaphor of carrying a heavy stone. It's like coming alongside and saying, allie, I'm going to help carry this for a little bit. It's about watching for bias, watching for things like this, injustices that happen and intervening. And I hope that your community, comes and helps to carry this stone. And that's what my role is in responding to this, is just how can we share this and support you and support this work. And I just hope the YWCA responds to this.
>> Ally Hrbachek: I really hope they do too. But that's why we all cc'd the sponsors, because while they may not say anything to us, I know they feel a sense of responsibility and obligation to say something to their sponsors.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, well, one, one hopes. I'm thinking, you know, for anyone who's listening to this that is part of a corporation organization or grappling with their own, like what do we say about reconciliation? Particularly if you're an all white board or you know, as you get hot, like closer to the top in the hierarchy that is your organizational structure, if it, if it's like getting whiter as you get higher, or male or, or straight and cisgendered or whatever it is, I just invite you to begin to like, look around the room and figure out, well, whose voice is missing? Who do we not see in this space? And like, this comment isn't just about truth and reconciliation. This is about like the marginalization of all. Like, like bipoc communities, queer communities, and the list goes on about who gets marginalized in our society. if you are missing, if you are missing voices that don't sound like, like yours, if you're missing faces that don't look like you, then you are also missing critical lived experiences and perspectives that you would really benefit from hearing. And I invite you to do more than just diversify your boards and your organizational, like who gets the senior positions, but actually commit to transformation. go beyond inclusion. if we're talking about reconciliation, explore also decolonization. And what might that look like and what does that mean? And so you know, this work is going to call on you to have to disrupt who, who enjoys power and who enjoys privilege in your organization. and bringing in people who don't look like you don't think, like you don't come from the same background that you come from. And and being okay enough to be a little uncomfortable in conversations and be courageous enough to have conversations about white privilege, white fragility, white supremacy, because these things dominate those spaces. And I mean, I have to say, like this week I've had tremendous anxiety. I never talk about reconciliation. Never, never, never anyone wants to hire me to come in to do reconciliation work. I always turn them down. Why? Because it's, it's like a kind of energetic, labor or burden or cost that I'm not willing to pay. I don't want to share my residential school story for the benefit of your education. And I think that practice of calling survivors in for that purpose needs to go because it keeps us wounded and it upholds the stereotype that this is all we are. I'm not interested in that. I'm not interested in telling you how to reconcile. If you want to have a reconciliation conversation, call me in to tell me how your organization is going to achieve an advanced reconciliation and do it in my honor and in my name or in the name of another survivor. Like I'm there for that conversation to show up and listen to you. But my energy will not be spent educating people on how to achieve reconciliation. So I invite you all to, to go initiate that and do that work on your own. Don't hoist it upon the Indigenous people in your community to teach you and educate you. Unless of course, that is their job. I know here on the west coast there are a lot of Indigenous led organizations that do nothing but educate corporations on reconciliation and how to begin to advance reconciliation within corporate structures, within organizational like relationships with public, etc. call on those people. You need training, you need education, you need to hear these voices that are willing to do this work. But unless you're there to just reinforce stereotypes like don't call, don't call on, don't call on Indigenous people for that purpose. So I think that's really an important piece that needs to be said. And this is for all organizations who are grappling with reconciliation. And I'm hoping that this conversation doesn't freak anyone out to go, oh, I don't want to be part of that conversation. Like, look at what the why tried to do a good thing and now they're being slammed. I don't want this to put off, predominantly white leadership organizations. This isn't about shaming or blaming. This is about accountability. It's about inquiry. Like, holy. Wait a second, how are you interpreting reconciliation? Help me understand your logic because I don't understand this. this is accountability and I don't think any of us should be scared off, ah, from accountability, especially if we are a leader in our community.
>> Dr. Judy Johnson-Fernick: Yeah. I just want to say further to that. It's an opportunity challenge, pushes change. This is an opportunity to put a lens, inquiry, as you said, on something that had good intentions and went wrong. I would encourage organizations, including the Y, when they are challenged on things like this, to take it as an opportunity and dive back into the processes at the root and see from a decolonizing perspective, decenter, the white, the western perspective, that's at the root of all the organizational structures and decisions that we make. And just ask questions about it. It's an opportunity.
>> Myrna McCallum : Exactly. All right, Lish, I want you to tell us a little bit about, like Ali's, Ally's Creative Bake Shop that you're now known as, formerly Ally's Cake Creations. So I know a couple years ago you, started doing these TRC cookies and and use those as a education tool and your way of advancing reconciliation. But I saw on social media you posted something about how things, things are going to change after this experience. Can you tell us how so?
>> Ally Hrbachek: Well, without getting into it too much while I'm still figuring out all the details, but I know I'm going to be rewriting my booklet because in the truth and reconciliation theme cookie kit that I've offered these past three years, I'm going to be reworking it.
>> Myrna McCallum : Let me pause you there for a sec. Tell us a little bit about what's in your cookie kit. What has been in there historically.
>> Ally Hrbachek: Okay. So in my TRC themed cookie kits, I offered 12 cookies. So it was a DIY kind of cookie kit. You got 12 cookies, four icings and like three sprinkle packs. And then you had a booklet in there that was written by me. So I created this concept of educating people in their homes, in a safe environment, in a trauma free way to have safe and engaging conversations about the residential school system. And the only reason I decided to create this truth and reconciliation theme cookie kit was because when we had that Kamloops discovery years ago, so many people had no idea what had really gone on. And to me, like, that's just, it's wild. Like as Indigenous people, we all know and for like, it was just a wild and rude awakening to me to see all these people just be blown away over what had happened, you know, one town over or you know, just across m the city or whatever it might be. So I created this kit in order just to help engage safe and meaningful conversations so people could start to, you know, just get educated a little bit, just open the door. And then if they wanted to further their education, then I provided resources for them to further their understanding about truth and reconciliation. Residential, schools, 60 scoop, whatever it might be. So yeah, that.
>> Myrna McCallum : So in your cookie kits they're like Indigenous or Cree themed cookies, right? So families with little kids or whatever, kids sit together and then they decorate their own own little cookies and they talk a little bit about whatever's in your booklet. Right. So what were Some of the shapes of the cookies and what was contained in your booklet.
>> Ally Hrbachek: One of the shapes was a, teepee. So there was a teepee in there and kids could decorate the teepee. And then in the booklet the parents can read off my definition of what I thought the teepee was, what it meant to my people, you know, the Cree people. And at the end of each shape, which I think I included four shapes, there was a discussion point where I was like, okay, now tell me what the teepee means to you or whatever it might be something that just engages some further thought with the family.
>> Dr. Judy Johnson-Fernick: Right.
>> Myrna McCallum : What were some of the other shapes?
>> Ally Hrbachek: we had the medicine wheel, we had a shirt shaped cookie. So the symbolism of the orange shirt and the eagle feather. Yeah, just some very basic, shapes. But we all got to start somewhere. And a lot of people don't really have the understanding too much about Indigenous culture.
>> Myrna McCallum : Well, I know that those cookie kits are a hit because every like June, when people buy them out and now like the reconciliation day, you see people posting about them, their whole families are, are decorating all these cookies and talking to each other about what it all means. So I think it's pretty tremendous. And what, how much do you share in your booklet?
>> Ally Hrbachek: I share just a tiny glimpse of our family and what we had gone through. I'm the daughter of a residential school survivor. I talk, I think I mentioned just very briefly, like one simple sentence. My mom made it out of residential school, this residential school system. And while my uncle is still alive, he did not make it out of the residential school system. You know, I make it known on my page that my uncle does not do well. He is not in a good place and he has never healed from residential schools. His experience and, you and uncle are just so very different. Could have went one way and you, you guys just went completely different directions. And that can be said, said the same for countless households all over.
>> Myrna McCallum : Totally. So what do you think is maybe going to change now?
>> Ally Hrbachek: I think I'm going to bring awareness to this term truth and reconciliation. And instead of the meaning of this term that was created of truth and reconciliation, I think I'm going to encourage more critical thinking of how can I be an ally, how can I live in truth and reconciliation every single day? And I just hope that that's a start because I find now that in just my few short days, like four days of this whole thing going down, truth and reconciliation is, while it's meant to symbol, symbolize something good, it actually can so easily be misused and create harms. And we're just seeing it very like a small glimpse of it in one organization. You know, there's so many organizations out there, and I'm sure, you know, there's misuse of this, term out there too. And I just want to create change. I want to see people being critical thinkers. I don't want people just throwing the term around loosely because, my mom always said, growing up, it's not about what you say, it's about what you do.
>> Myrna McCallum : Word. Okay, Judy, how about you? Like, what are your. How are you advancing reconciliation? What are your thoughts about allyship? Especially for people who are like, well, what the hell is allyship? And what does that mean in relation to truth and reconciliation?
>> Dr. Judy Johnson-Fernick: It's everything that we're talking about. Allyship is having the hard conversations and jumping off of what Ally was just saying. I love that. I didn't know that you had created this kit. And one of the classes that I teach on campus is around, pre service teacher education and the topic of health and how we need to bring hard conversations to our classrooms and have those conversations, whether it's around mental health issues or concerns, suicide, some things around trauma, truth and reconciliation, residential schools. I've used, Monique Grace Smith to help me bring that conversation to my classroom. But I'm now going to use Ally's Cookie Creations and your kit to bring that conversation to my classroom. So I look forward to connecting around that because I think that's a great way to do that through something that is artistic and focused on healing and focused on conversation. And we avoid these conversations because they're hard conversations. They're hard conversations because we tend to focus on what's hard about them. But we can focus on healing through these conversations. And it's just a shift in, in lens, a shift in perspective. So I love that you're doing that work and I'm going to follow up by connecting with you and, and bringing that, if you don't mind your kit to my classroom for my students and ask them to engage in that. Especially for, well, for all educators. But I'm thinking especially for early career educators as well, but for allyship, you know, just continuing to watch where. For where I see biased decision making, unthoughtful decision making and challenging that. I think that's, that's my role is just to speak up and say, hey, and I've been in a situation, I've been in situations before where I've stayed silent and I'm not proud of it. And it. I've been called into conversations that were really hard, and, you know, they, they can be triggering because we get our defenses up and we feel like, you know, I'm, I'm an ally. Why didn't I speak up? But like I said earlier, it's important for me to listen. And I hope the lesson inherent in that is to, to listen and push ourselves, especially as white people, into these conversations and, you know, do what we can.
>> Myrna McCallum : Exactly. Do what we can. And do better. When we mess up, do better. I think that's really important. And so for folks who are now, like, you know, thinking, oh, what kind of training are we going to get? Okay, I listen to this podcast and like, let's get in this and this and this. I wanted to say, you know, in. In a time where there are organizations that are bent towards, like, cultural competence training, I really encourage people to explore cultural humility training. Training. That's, that's, that's a training that I offer. Don't call me though, because I have no capacity to offer that training right now in this context. But there are other people who do that. And cultural humility is a completely different spin than cultural competence. And for organizations that have had a history of arrogance or just like, speaking into the void to people who look just like them, humility is something, you know, that would benefit you as a leader and as an organization. So please explore cultural humility training. All right, well, I want to thank both of you, for having this conversation about truth and reconciliation and the whole debacle that has happened in this last little while in Saskatoon. I know that it's likely been a heavy conversation and probably the heaviest for my kid because this is the community she lives in. this is the space in which she works. And I mean, I have a bit of privilege. I live on the West Coast. I got no skin in the game. I'm, I don't want nothing from the. Any YWCA anywhere. I don't need to, you know, censor what I say. And in relation to, you know, calling people in to, to do better around reconciliation, so I get that I have some privilege. And Judy, at the top of this, this conversation, you acknowledged your privilege, in relation to this topic as well. So, you know, I just want to acknowledge how, how tough it must be for my kid, going through this time. And I want to say to folks listening in the Saskatoon area, if you want to support, you know, Indigenous business owners and do your part to learn about how to advance reconciliation even in your home and in your conversations, look for, Indigenous business owners and entrepreneurs and go and support them, support their business. Call my kid. she makes incredible custom art, beautiful pieces of, like, edibles. Not those kinds of edibles, but edible treats. Go and call her, Ally's Creative Bake Shop. And if you're a corporation organization looking for something that you could bring in that it's going to help educate your office, Ally's got these awesome, TRC cookie kits that she sells. So, make sure that you look her up. And otherwise. What I wanted to say to everyone listening is, you know, whatever your take is on reconciliation in this country, truth and reconciliation, reconciliation, whatever strategy you're working on, unfolding, whatever mission statement and value statement you want to put out there, or your commitment, your corporate commitment, I just really implore you that whatever it is, it has to absolutely imperative, it has to uphold Indigenous people. If it doesn't do that, you're missing the mark.
>> Ally Hrbachek: Absolutely. And even with the nonprofit that I've started, there's going to be a cultural revitalization component to every event that we host. So something to look into if you want to support a good cause or be a part of something bigger than yourself, helping the communities in need, that right there is an act of truth and reconciliation.
>> Myrna McCallum : That's right. So I, I was remiss to say, Alicia has started the Creative Foundation. C R E E in T I've Creative Foundation. And, you know, had the y, actually asked her to pitch herself for Truth and Reconciliation, what they would have heard is that in addition to her running a successful business for the last several years, promoting truth and reconciliation through the work that she does, through the education that she does. in June and September, they would have also heard how every Mother's Day, she collects donations, flowers, gifts, all kinds of things. And she goes to the. To the. Is it the why, Alicia, that you go to?
>> Ally Hrbachek: I go to the STC Wellness Center.
>> Myrna McCallum : Okay. But you go and you give gifts to moms and kids who are in women's shelters escaping domestic violence situations. You do that. Single moms are. Are in your heart because you were raised by one. You give to them every Mother's Day, and you find gifts and all, and you call on community to contribute, and they show up every Christmas. You do an entire thing down on the. On 20th street, and you feed, people who have no house, no home, no food. You feed them, you give them clothing. You do a whole drive. You do A toy drive for kids who are living in these shelters with their parents. And you are constantly working on giving back to community. And that is something that, you know, the. Why didn't hear about what you do. And you are known for all the, all the giving back that you do, all the feeding people and, giving them gifts and giving them a reason to continue to stand up day after day. And I know everyone on your social media, highlights you all the time for that work that you do. So supporting Alicia is supporting people in this. Yeah. In the Saskatoon area, in the community who. People who don't have anything. And, she brings sunshine and hope and possibility into, you know, dark days and dark times. So thank you, my girl, for all the work that you do. And thank you, Judy, for, you know, being willing to have this conversation with us. that takes tremendous courage to, you know, be the white person who shows up to have this conversation. And if it puts people at ease. I'm half white, okay? So it's not like I'm all. It's us or them, I'm. I'm both. So, but it takes courage. And I want to commend you because I don't want any of this, like, debacle, any of the stuff that happened this week to scare people, white people, away from having this conversation. Like, this is how we advance reconciliation by being in conversation together, listening to each other and moving, taking turns carrying the boulder or the rock and moving it all forward. So thank you, Judy. Thank you. Thanks, kid. Love you.
>> Myrna McCallum : All right, that's, the episode on truth and reconciliation, folks. I hope that you took away something really positive. I hope, if anything, it inspires you to think about how you as an entity, as an individual, can uplift Indigenous people wherever you work, in whatever capacity, is possible for you. And if you are connected to an Indigenous professional network, please be sure to share my love back course with them. I, would love to see you as many, many folks as possible come to, North Vancouver. So June 24th and 25th is when that course is running here in North Vancouver. You can go to My website, Myrna McCollum Co Loveback, for more information. All right, folks, thanks for listening and take care of yourselves and each other. And if you have any feedback, you can find me on social media, the Trauma Informed layer on, on Instagram, of course. I'm all over LinkedIn. Until next time. Take care. This episode was recorded on the traditional ancestral and unceded territory of the Tsleil Waututh people.