Today's conversation is with Asha Frost, published author, speaker, spiritual mentor and modern day medicine woman. To learn more about Asha, please check out her website: www.ashafrost.com To learn more about the Justice as Trauma Conference, visit: www.myrnamccallum.co/jat2025
Today's conversation is with Asha Frost, published author, speaker, spiritual mentor and modern day medicine woman. To learn more about Asha, please check out her website: www.ashafrost.com To learn more about the Justice as Trauma Conference, visit: www.myrnamccallum.co/jat2025
>> Myrna McCallum : Hey, folks, I know it's been a while. I haven't dropped an episode since I think, July. But, you know, that is grief and healing. If you've listened to the last episode, you know exactly what it is that I'm referencing. Nonetheless, I am so incredibly grateful for all of you for sticking with me, for continuing to check to see if I've dropped a new episode, for asking about when I'm going to drop another episode. I really appreciate all of you for staying tuned in to the Trauma Informed Lawyer podcast. So tonight I'm on the road. I don't have access to all my files, including my intro and my outro, but I wanted to share this episode with all of you. And although it's not as smooth as I like it to be, it is what it is. And then when I'm home, I'm going to like, insert the intro and the outro. But, for now, I would love for you to hear this conversation with Asha Frost. She is the author of fantastic book called You are the Medicine. Picked it up a couple years ago. It's a great read and she has created much more than that. A lot of folks know who Asha is. She is essentially a modern day medicine woman. She's fantastic and I think you're going to love this conversation. For those of you who have been eager to meet Asha, and I know many of you are, I just want you to know that she is hosting a workshop at my conference, which is happening March 17th to 19th at the Vancouver Convention Center. Justice is trauma. Yep. I'm doing a second conference. Because the last one was so successful, I decided I'm going to do it again. Justice is Trauma Conference Vancouver Convention Center March 17th to 19th Asha is one of the many, speakers who's going to be in attendance. She's going to be doing a workshop on the seven grandfather teachings. It's your opportunity to connect with her. I hope that you will consider joining me, Asha and all my men. Many other speakers there at that event. If you have any questions about it or are curious about the lineup, you can check out my website, Myrna McCollum Co JAT2025 or you can also send me an email. J a t@myrnamaccallum co not c o M not M C A but C O. Anyway, a lot of love to you. Thank you for sticking with me. And M. I also want you to know that throughout December, you're going to hear at least two, maybe three more episodes before the year ends. Okay, cool. All right. Well, I'm wishing you, like, the very best holiday season, And I hope 2024 was so kind to you and so good to you, and, yeah, thank you again. Okay, let's get into it with Asha Frost.
>> Myrna McCallum : Asha Frost, welcome to the Trauma Informed Lawyer podcast.
>> Asha Frost: Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited.
>> Myrna McCallum : It's really good to meet you. a couple years ago, I bought your book, you Are the Medicine. Like, that title, as I was, like, walking around in the bookstore, just jumped out to me because, well, you know, I'm Mati, and I'm Cree. I'm from Treaty 6 territory, but I live on the west coast. I live on Tsleil Waututh, lands here in North Vancouver. And, you know, like many indigenous people, I believe that we're always told, like, the medicine is you. You are the medicine. And we, live in a world where especially, like, on Instagram, where everyone is telling us, actually, no, the solution to all your problems is here. Just subscribe and take my program, download my app, buy my book or whatever. Right. Like, always, like, inviting us to look outside of ourselves. So when I saw your book, I was like, oh, I need this book. So thank you for writing it.
>> Asha Frost: Oh, thank you. That's the exact reaction I want folks to have when they see it. Just that reminder that they have that power within.
>> Myrna McCallum : So tell me, what was your inspiration for writing you Are the Medicine? Is that your first book, and what was the inspiration?
>> Asha Frost: Yeah, that title in particular came from a lot of experiences of me looking outside of myself for healing. And, of course, we do that because especially if we're desperate or we're searching for some sort of connection. And I think I was diagnosed with a, chronic illness at 17. It was a lupus diagnosis, and that sent me into a bit of a panic. I wanted to be here for a long time. I wanted to have children. I wanted to live my life. And in those moments of diagnosis and what followed, I went into the space of searching, so, searching for answers of how I could best heal my body, searching for answers of how I could feel better and perhaps even live a long life and have those children. So I was. It was a little bit ingrained in me. Like, oh, yeah, the medicine's out there. And at the time, I was really disconnected from my ancestral ways and teachings due to colonization. And so I knew there was a different way. I knew the earth could help me. Like, there was a knowing. I think as indigenous people, we. We have that knowing running through our waters. We have that rustling in our bones like we know it, and we've just been conditioned to not listen to it or to go in a different direction. So. So after some fumbling and trying to find that path, then there were a lot of people that did help me, that were external to me. But the best helpers were the ones that returned me back to me. The best helpers were the ones where I felt the spark of, oh, my goodness, this is who I am and this is what I know, and this is what my vital force and my healing feels like. That was the most profound for me, and that has continued up to this point in my life.
>> Myrna McCallum : That's remarkable. I love hearing that story about, like, the best helpers are the ones that help you find your way back to yourself, essentially.
>> Myrna McCallum: Right.
>> Myrna McCallum : Like, that's ultimately the best helpers. So what, has been the response to your book, You are the Medicine.
>> Asha Frost: It's been beyond my wildest dreams, to be honest. When I put it out there when I was writing it, I thought, oh, nobody's going to read this. I'm writing this in my, you know, comfortable cavern of expression, self expression. And when it went out in the world, I think I went into a freeze response for six months because I didn't really think about that next step, what it would feel like to have those very personal stories and healing, ultimately, my healing journey out to anybody who picked it up and read it. And there was before that, some controversy around a letter I'd written, Dear white woman, who wants to be like me. And so I'd already gone in a little bit of this trauma response of, oh, my gosh, all these people are mad at me and they're, they're coming after me. And I couldn't go into my inbox for a whole year because of the response from that. So I think it was layered upon that of, what if. What if everybody's mad at me? What if all these people are saying this is wrong? All these things came into my energy and my heart. And so when I chilled out a little bit and when I got back in my body and just looked around to see the response, I was floored. It still comes back to me where people say this book changed my life, or especially from younger indigenous folks, especially some two spirit folks who say, like, I've never been seen by anything before, or I've never had a way to reconnect to my medicine or our teachings, and this is my first way in. So that gratitude means a lot to me.
>> Myrna McCallum : That's incredible. can I ask you a little bit about this letter because I didn't hear about it until just now. Can you tell me about it?
>> Asha Frost: Yeah. So I wrote it in 2019, and it was a letter that was created from a place of me feeling shaken a lot from seeing appropriation happening in my local community. At the time, social media wasn't as big, so maybe online at times, but every time I would feel it or see it, I'd start to shake inside. And I didn't know at the time any vocabulary for that. I didn't really realize the nervous system impact that was happening to me. But I would get really, upset when I would see a white woman wearing indigenous clothing, or you'd see the woman wearing the, headdresses and all of the costumes. Right. At all these places. And I couldn't quite put a finger on it because at that time it wasn't spoken about in the same way as it is today. So I wrote this letter about. About how I've been feeling about this for the last 10 years. And I put it on my blog. And at the time, there weren't that many people that read my blog, truly, and maybe my clients. And then it went viral. I shared it on my Instagram, and then it went viral and it kept going. Shared more and more and more and more. And I'd say half the people were so saying, thank you. Now, this is before 2020, right? This is before people started actually talking about the issues that have needed to be talked about forever. and half the people were really mad at me. So those. Like my inbox was just filled with all. And people were also wanting to tell me their story. So there'd be these long emails of, like, novels from people trying to defend themselves and explain why they're using sage in the way they're using it. about their past lives, about their great, great, great, great, great, great grandmother. Like, all of these things that I didn't have the capacity to take in. And, I needed to really learn about boundaries. It was really huge. I walked through the fire during that time.
>> Myrna McCallum : Interesting. Oh my gosh. There's so much to unpack in what you just said. I mean. Oh, I mean, because we live in a time of, like, horrible cultural appropriation. Like, it still continues, right? And, the descendants and the pretendions and like, that just keeps on going and going and going. And, it is like, from what I can see on social media, it is having such a impact, particularly on indigenous women, is what I'm seeing. and I Mean, I feel it to some extent, but because my fight tends to be somewhere else, I tend to give that fight my energy. but I just observe and I feel it sometimes, and I feel it wash over me. And then I ask myself, do I want to lend my voice to this? And I decide, no, there's enough people speaking about it. I want to save my voice for this other thing that I'm fighting for. And still, what I have observed is when you. When we see, whether it's the Buffy Saint Marie's or the. In my. In my legal world, Marianne, ah, Mary Ellen Terpella Fond. when you see women like this who have gained so much recognition, prestige, awards, wealth, acceptance, belonging where other truly Indigenous women have not, or have been denied or have been rejected, and then when you see Indigenous people, particularly Indigenous men, ah, rallying around these women even after it becomes known that they fake this identity for so long, it creates incredible harm. And I believe it just feeds this, like, dehumanization and demoral. Demoralization that Indigenous women are experiencing. And the reason I say that piece is because I've been reflecting on this recently because of a conversation I just had with Angela Sterritt who wrote a really awesome book called Unbroken. she and I were just in Ottawa last week where we were talking about her book. and anyone listening to this should go and read. In addition to reading Asha's book, you Are the Medicine, you have to read Unbroken, which talks about, Angela's work, investigating missing and murdered Indigenous women. And twice in that book, she refers to how, like, the public treats Indigenous women as subhuman. And I just feel like some of the traumatic rippling of those who rallied to protect women who have faked Indigenous identity does so much harm to Indigenous women, like, truly. To those of us who are truly Indigenous, and who have been looking for acceptance and. And belonging and inclusion and all of the things. And so I just want to say, even though you didn't know the words for some of the things, I really, you know, I commend you for writing a letter like that.
>> Asha Frost: Oh, thank you. I think that belonging piece is everything, because even as you say that, I can feel like something hooking into me of that desire. It's like a constant desire to feel like I want to belong somewhere. And of course, it's that colonial construct and that just. That's torn that apart in so many ways. So you're right. I think that those things. This conversation needs to continue every single day. In every way. And yeah, thank you for bringing it to light again. Because sometimes I talk about it and then it goes. Gets hidden again and then it comes up again and then goes back into the shadows.
>> Myrna McCallum : I really think, Asha, that there's like a bigger. There's a bigger conversation that needs to be had or needs to be pulled into the light that is about, you know, what is the view of Indigenous women in this country? Or maybe, you know, it's funny that you. You talked about this. This title, that you shared about, you know, like, white women, like, dear white women, why do you want to be like me? That type of thing. I'm. I was thinking after speaking with Angela about posting something to Canadians to say, you know, dear Canadians, why do you hate Indigenous women? Because as I was reading, Angela's book, that's the thing that just kept coming up for me. Although she didn't say those words, but that was the. The theme of it. When I looked at and considered, just how many Indigenous women have gone missing or have been found murdered and the lack of attention, not just media attention, but any attention, resources, investigation, all of the things that have occurred, even like the poor treatment of, Indigenous women. When things have occurred, like, I think in my home province of, Trinity, six Gatch women from northern Saskatchewan, a little Mechi village called Green Lake, not far from there, some years back, a young Cree boy was murdered, named Hilton Bushy, by a white farmer named Gerald Stanley. One of the things that stood out for me, when his family talked about the aftermath of that was how when the RCMP came to Colton Bouchie's home, to I guess, speak to his mother, they, they began to search her home and in a really uncaring way, told her that her son was dead and that she needed to pull herself together because he was being investigated for sack, even though he was now deceased. And so all of these things anyway, are just like, flowing into my mind that I just think, you know, I love the work that you're doing. I love that you are. You are the face of an Indigenous woman. Like, it's like I think every Indigenous woman who is out there allowing themselves to be seen, to be heard, who is not, whatever the stereotype or the myth is, is somebody who is answering a call to educate people on. On their racist ideas or their indifference or whatever biases have been operating that have led to Indigenous women being treated as subhuman to the state. And so, yeah, anyway, obviously I have some Stuff going on after I read Unbroken that I'm reflecting on quite a bit as an Indigenous woman. so. But I want to like come back to you and talk about the healing and the, and the resilience and all of the air and attention that you have been giving to your audience, your readers. Because I had a look at your really beautiful website and all the programs that you're running, the work that you're doing. Clearly you've created a community of care. People are showing up and they want to be part of this conversation with you. What are you finding folks are struggling with the most in seeking beyond things like belonging?
>> Asha Frost: M. That's such a good question. Well, first I want to really address like my community because a lot of it, a lot of my community initially started as non indigenous people. There was a lot of white women, quite frankly, that was. Who was really attracted to my teachings. And I will say that so many of them have stepped up to learn the truth and the history and become true allies of Indigenous voices. Uplifting and you know, raising money for, and becoming these advocates for all of these causes. And there's something that's really beautiful and heartwarming about that. When we hear the other statistics that sometimes can get me down, that almost I've had this boundary of if you want to work with me, this is what you have to understand. You need to know about the history and you need, you know, you need to know why we're doing a land acknowledgement in my workshops and circles. You need to know when it's appropriate to use these different things. And that's been really powerful. So over the last couple years since my book came out, there are a lot of folks that are searching for how to walk in a good way with Indigenous people, how to become allies and advocates and how to. I don't sense a lot of them are coming from guilt. It feels like a heart centered place. But perhaps some of that's just true. But we're doing this healing together. My, my spirit name is Healing Rainbow Woman and a Rainbow, I think is this bridge. So I think I'm this bridge to bring those Indigenous voices with, together with non Indigenous helpers and voices. Part of that Tree Treaty agreement really and how we can bridge this together and how we can make amends and how we can heal. Because I, I really feel in my communities that there is a need, a desire, a want to do something. And so I'm hoping my work invites them in and how to do this in one way, of course, there's many, many different ways. But I see the people in my communities wanting to help in their way and the way that they feel invited into. So that feels profound for me.
>> Myrna McCallum : I love Matt. allyship, I think, is really important. And there's a good way to do it and maybe a not so good way to do it. And so the examples you gave for listeners who are like, how can I be a good ally? I think actually you just said it right there. So if you can some of those things come to. Come to someone with humility and an earnestness about what it is that you are looking for, while also taking on the work of educating yourself, as opposed to relying on indigenous people to educate you, I think that's incredibly important.
>> Asha Frost: Oh, my goodness, what a good point that is too. Because I think that that exhausts us and burns us out and overwhelms us time and time again. No matter how many times I spend speak to still doesn't sink in necessarily to everybody. And how you're asking for more and more labor, more and more energy constantly from indigenous women, I think that you would never ask, in my industry, a white woman to do. You just. You wouldn't even feel, entitled to it. That's my sense is there's a lot of entitlement to my energy, to my time. you know, I have done speaking events where I do not get paid for seven months, six months. And the white women who are more famous than me, because of course they've had more privilege to get there, get paid tens of thousands of dollars, and I'm still begging for my payment six months later, or, you know, people come in and I know when it's a tokenization now, I can. I can smell that so clearly of when they want me for that. And then they demand so many things, from me with that entitled energy. And I think this is the same same energy that your ancestors as settlers came in and took and extracted and demanded from us. And you're just reenacting that over and over again. So over the last five years, I've been harmed a lot in those situations. And when you talk about resilience, I come from a place of resilience, from those experiences. And I don't want to have to walk through that every day. I don't want to have to experience that anymore. yeah, so I'm here for reciprocity and listening and respect and those other pieces. Yeah. you can do the work on that because I'm not doing it anymore.
>> Myrna McCallum : I love that. Right On. Right on. And can I just also add, you know, part of why I love seeing indigenous women, in media thriving and being known as like best selling authors and educators and healers and leaders is because it, it challenges that old narrative that we are, you know, that we are less than in some, some way. Right. And so, I want to know like, what is your view on and how like, or are you grappling with something I'm, I've been grappling with, which is whenever I'm on social media, particularly Instagram, and I'm looking for content on things like whether it's intergenerational healing or it is, something about healing trauma. There's like an endless list of blonde white women who are talking to me, like whether it's the Brenny Browns or the Gabby Bernstein or whomever, what I'm, I'm getting in that is that there's this whiteness in wellness that like they, they've got the, they've got that on lock and I have to actually dig a little deeper to find black and brown voices also talking about wellness, especially from that racial, intergenerational, historical, cultural lens that I don't actually get from the mainstream. And so, have you noticed the same thing? And how are you, like, how do you respond to that?
>> Asha Frost: I grapple with this every single day. I feel like I'm living it, living through it, living in it. especially being in the publishing world, especially being in the self help publishing world where it's wellness and new age and self help all together and being in a publishing house that doesn't have a lot of voices that are bipoc, any indigenous or brown and black. There's some, there's some and they're growing and I'm so grateful for that. And, and sometimes I feel like how can I exist in this world? how can I be seen? Am I, you know, that worthiness to take up space has been such a huge journey over the last five years. It's still a journey I take every single day and try to expand my capacity for that worthiness and taking up that space. Because ultimately that sort of stake on wellness is, is in whiteness. Like white spaces have taken the stake on wellness and the tides are changing. I do see that. It's just very, very slow. So I'll be honest, sometimes I get disheartened by that. And sometimes I have to listen to my ancestors telling me to keep going. And sometimes I have to look at people like Angela and see that she's thriving, and she inspires me. I have to look at those who inspire me that I feel like sometimes we're trailblazing the way because there's not a lot of people modeling it ahead of us. And that feels lonely sometimes to just feel like, okay, I'm doing this thing. I don't quite have a lot of guidance, but I'm trusting my ancestors. I'm trusting my vision. that inherent trust is something that I think that white women have a privilege. They don't. They have a ton of people guiding them. They have a ton of. They have a ton of space open for them to thrive and to be abundant, and they have a ton of privilege in that way that we don't have. So, yes, I feel like I live in that every day.
>> Myrna McCallum : Yeah, definitely what you're saying. Like, they can look into that space and immediately sense belonging, because what they see when they look into that space is people who look like them, who maybe come from a similar background. Then when folks like you and I go look in that space, we're like, whoa. probably not so much. I know one of the things I've been thinking about for the last few years is how I would love to see in my lifetime, like, an indigenous version of Oprah, somebody having that same level of fame, recognition, wealth, knowledge, impact, charisma on, like, a global stage. I mean, when we look at America, I mean, I know that, you know, black people have had their own history that, like, that's rooted in slavery, and they've had to, like, you know, fight for all the things that they enjoy. Oprah has her own story that she shares all the time, and I love that they have space and we can see them like, they're visible. I don't see that so much with indigenous people. And. And certainly people could be like, well, you know, you're only 5% of the population or whatever. I don't care. I mean, we're the original peoples of this land. And I don't. I don't think just because we're 5% of the population that we should only get 5% of the attention or 5% of the opportunity. You know what I mean? I want to see. I want to see our own people, like, blow up, glow up, take up space, be seen, be heard, and have what they say to people truly matter.
>> Asha Frost: Yes, I'm here for that. I'm here for that. I. I feel like sometimes, maybe that's what keeps me going, is perhaps paving that way for others to come along. And be like, now there's space for you. You know, come and know that you're worthy of that. So I'm here for that too. I would love an indigenous Oprah.
>> Myrna McCallum : Right, Right. I think I had this conversation with Jennifer Pedemski. She's like the, CEO of the Shine Network Institute. And she's like a well known filmmaker and an actor and all of the things incredible, creative and, you know, like, I think it's time, like, it's time for indigenous women to shine and to challenge, what, like the views, the ignorant, racist, ill informed views of who we are, what we're capable of and, where we belong. And so with your writing, with all that you're creating, and with everything that you are offering the world, I really believe, Asha, that you are totally informing that, like, you're one of the people who's adding your voice, your talent, your skills, your gifts to that path. And I just thank you for that.
>> Asha Frost: Oh, my goodness, thank you. That is, that I'm taking that in. I'm taking that in. It's going to keep me going.
>> Myrna McCallum : Take it in, take it in. It's all for you. so you probably, I don't know what you thought when you heard, like, the Trauma Informed Lawyer podcast wanted to talk to you. because I think some people are like, oh, what do I know about lawyers? Or I'm not a lawyer. I don't have, I don't come from a legal background. But anybody who listens to this podcast or who's been a long time listener, they know a few things. One is, although originally this podcast was created for lawyers, and I thought maybe five lawyers in Vancouver would listen to it when I started it, what I learned, especially after my first interview, which was with Dr. Gabor mate, who I had met through some other thing where he interviewed me for some project he was working on. I didn't know who he was or what a big deal people perceived him to be at the time. So when I called him up and said, hey, I'm starting a podcast. Will you be my guest? And he's like, yeah. then what ended up happening, Asha, was the podcast took off everywhere. And then one of my good friends calls me up and says, you, you know Gabor Mate? And I was like, oh, yeah, that guy. Yeah, like, he called me a few months ago about something and then we stayed in touch, whatever. And she's like, myrna, like, this guy is like, on famous people's podcast. He's known all over the world. He does all these things. And I'm like, thank God I didn't know that because I would have never phoned him, I would have never called him and invite. I would have self rejected, you know, like that thing that we do sometimes. so I'm really glad I didn't know. But what ended up happening because of that experience was I began to see how the subject of trauma and the subject of healing and all things related to trauma and healing, whether it's, you know, it's toxic stress or vicarious trauma, intergenerational trauma, mental, health issues, whether it's anxiety, depression, all of the things, these were universal experiences that people were having inside my profession but also outside of my profession. More and more people were tuning in who weren't lawyers, who weren't part of the justice system because of the humanity that my guests were bringing to our conversations. Because we're all human beings and we're all having a similar experience, even though we feel isolated, excluded, maybe we lack belonging, or we are not well resourced to have certain conversations. But, so then somehow this podcast ended up being about going from being about how I became the trauma informed lawyer and started to understand how trauma shows up in the courtroom and in clients to like being a bigger conversation about healing and wellness and how we can be better, at our jobs if we were to integrate elements of emotional intelligence and an understanding of trauma, and. And while also committing to healing through self care practices and collective care practices. And I know that you're doing a lot of that work and so can I just ask self care, can you do some myth busting about what self care is? Because a lot of folks think it's wine in a bath.
>> Asha Frost: M. Oh my goodness. I can only speak from my perspective, but I feel like it's boundaries and it's who meeting myself every day, like, and my, my needs in that way, sort of emotional needs, spiritual needs. yeah, those things really are really important to me. And I do tend to think, you know, I do like to fill myself about being on the earth and walking in a forest and I do take my salt baths. Those things are so important. But for me it's like, I really live in the energetic world too. So for me it's like, is my energetic system, does, it have capacity? have I set the boundaries today that I need to so that I have that capacity for myself? am I asserting myself? Am I feeling worthy of taking up space like some of those really deep worthiness Issues and I think that are rooted in generation intergenerational trauma that I'm constantly working on every single day. So it's a reflection or introspection on an emotional and spiritual level. Those types of things are really important to me. Plus, engaging in a way where I'm being honest with myself, maybe walking those seven grandfather teachings where I'm being honest with myself, listening to my body and how it's speaking to me and then showing up in that way and creating relationships in that way that are going to be for my highest good. And it's not always easy. It's something that I'm constantly working on.
>> Myrna McCallum : Totally. And boundaries are never easy. And like, that was the first thing I heard you say. And Dr. Pooja Lakshman wrote this awesome book called Real Self Care. She says the first principle of real self care is boundaries. Tell me a little bit actually, what is it about boundaries that you think people should understand?
>> Asha Frost: I think perhaps that it's not a wall keeping things out, but it's a relational experience and you're constantly dancing with the energetics of that. I think sometimes we think boundaries are like, let's keep everything out and let's just be really rigid and let's just be really, like kind of like armored up. And I just don't see boundaries in that way. so I see them as a dance. I see that when I change my dance and when I change the way that I'm relating. Because sometimes we like to get really comfortable in relating a certain way that feels safe and perhaps is maybe maladapted or has just been a survival mechanism, then it causes an opportunity or it invites the other person and other party to dance in a different way too. So that's how I like to see it, is how am I growing with this and how I'm not going to be porous, I'm not going to be rigid, I'm going to be a little bit flexible and open to, the way that this relationship is going or the way that I am interacting and engaging with the outside world in that way. and you know, I'll say my whole life like that, no. Finding that sacred. No. And seeing the, the value of saying no and feeling worthy of saying no has been such a huge journey to get to this point. Probably rooted in some generational, familial, ancestral things where our voices have never been really heard in that way.
>> Myrna McCallum : For sure. I, I've given some talks where I invite people to examine their relationship to the word no. And sometimes I've even promoted this idea that no is a full. And lately, what I've been thinking about is in addition to exercising the word no and then also examining your relationship to hearing no from others. because for me, historically, when I would hear no, I would take that to mean I'm not worthy, I'm not good enough, you're rejecting me, you don't like me. You see how worthless I am. Like that just that wild self talk, right? Which would just break me down. And then I came to realize at some point, actually, when I hear no, it has nothing to do with me and has everything to do about that person's capacity and what they are communicating about their capacity. And so when I started to understand and really, like, take that in, my relationship to hearing no shifted. But where I'm being challenged right now is saying no when I want to say yes. Like, that's where I'm being challenged right now. And I think actually a lot of people are probably being challenged in that way because it's one thing to say yes when we want to say no. Like fawning, oh, can you come in on the weekend? Can you take this extra project? And you're like, I don't want to, but yeah, okay, I want to be a team player. I'll say yes, but I really want to say no. I think that's one thing. But saying no when you want to say yes. And for me, it usually comes in the form of work. Because, you know, I grew up really poor. I was in, like, like, really, really poor. I grew up, like, the level of poverty was just ridiculous. So somewhere in. In me is still that little girl who knows deep poverty. And so some people might call it a scarcity mindset. So sometimes when an opportunity presents itself and I know I'm already spent, overwhelmed, exhausted, my schedule is packed, I will sometimes say yes, even though you know I should say no, and I know I should say no, but I will say yes. So that's where I am struggling is saying no when I want to say yes.
>> Asha Frost: that's so profound. I find myself there, too. There's still that part of me that thinks, what if this is your last opportunity? What if these. What if you're just going to be outdated soon, or nobody's going to care about your voice anymore, or if you took that break in that rest, then you're going to just. Just become obsolete? So there's something there that really. That really pushes me into saying, into doing that. Like, that's that will really guide me. or belonging sometimes. Sometimes belonging will. Like, if it's somebody that I really respect and I think, oh, I can cultivate this relationship a little bit more deeply, but I'm spent and I have no capacity. I'll say yes, because I'll think, oh, well, that will be really beautiful. But it's not coming necessarily from a healed place. It's coming from that I want to belong in that space kind of place.
>> Myrna McCallum : Totally, totally. And I'm just thinking about like, you know, the consequence. Right. And like I feel the very same thing. Like I. I'm always thinking, okay, I should say yes now because what if people stop inviting me to come and speak to them or train them or, what if I just disappear for a few months and then, people just forget about me? Or the next thing comes up and then it's the next thing and, and it all goes away tomorrow. Like, that's kind of where my mind goes. But I'm curious, like, who the hell is that voice? Whose voice is that that's saying those things? You know? I don't know. Is it an inner critic? Is it your inner wounded self? Is it a company? Is it some historical thing? Like the scarcity goes back in my lineage a long, long, long way. Right. And so it's so multi layered. Yes.
>> Asha Frost: I think it's a combination of all of that. I think it's also the collective energy that tells us that we must be, you know, doing, hustling, working, doing all the things 247 or else. Or else I don't even know or else what? We will be forgotten. I don't know what the the or else is, but I can really relate to that and I can feel it deeply as you're speaking, like in that familial lineage type of way, that there's something that pushes me sometimes to hustle. It's like ingrained in me that even no matter how many beautiful things I say to myself, I can't ever quiet that voice down. It pushes me forward towards belonging or towards not becoming obsolete, whatever those things are.
>> Myrna McCallum : Interesting, interesting. I really thank you for the courage and the vulnerability it takes to actually share that. thank you. Now, a few times you mentioned the seven grandfather teachings. So for people who are not familiar with that, and what those are, can you tell us a little bit about the seven grandfather teachings and the work you do around that?
>> Asha Frost: So these are seven ways to live. To live with Miniba Madzawin, which is Anishinaabe, is, to Live in a good way as we, whatever, however we define good, I think. But I think this is from an elder perspective how we can measure ourselves maybe every day. And it really is in relationship to ourselves because there's no, I don't think there's anybody really judging us in this way. But I love, I love to redefine them a little bit. Like when I teach them, I think I redefine them a little bit from how perhaps they've been shared in different ways. so there's love. And I think I, really like to think about how that shows up for each and every person. I think these teachings are individualized. And so I never like to put a blanket statement on anything or anybody because I think that we all come in Creator's vision with a different nature. So I think that these teachings bring us back to our true nature ultimately. And ask us, how are you being inspired to live with love and truth and honesty and courage and humility and oh my gosh, now all the things.
>> Myrna McCallum : All the things. Yeah, all the things.
>> Asha Frost: Yes. All those. All those teachings. Yes. I always, whenever I say them out loud, I don't have them in front of me. Then I'm like, okay, but how do we live? How do we live in those ways? How do we live in those ways in a good way? And how do we come back intentionally? Like, I think when we say, how do we walk gently and softly upon the earth? It's really a question of like, are you really thinking about that? Are you thinking about how you're living with reciprocity and honoring your relationship with all of creation? That's how I see them. And I think sometimes, because I was really conditioned to be good as a good girl, like growing up then, I've really tried to dismantle myself from, from that with respect to the teachings and doing my best is really important to me. And that's what I pass on to my children, that our best is different every day and all you can do is do your best. but how do we live with creation in a good way? Is my question to myself.
>> Myrna McCallum : It's really like from what I'm getting from you, it's really about, like asking ourselves the question, are you living in alignment with your core values? Right. And then what are your core values? Especially if you've lost sight of those, which no judgment, no shame. It happens. Especially when we're so busy in this, you know, hustle, urgency, culture that we're living in. Right. To lose sight of a Little bit of what's important to us. So,
>> Asha Frost: yeah, our core values, that's a beautiful reflection every day, I think, to take and we can get pulled out of that. You're right. In this capitalistic world and in this world that, you know, when I wrote you are the medicine, I think it was, it was like this. You are the medicine. And we're being pulled constantly by external forces. And so I think for everyone, it's a challenge to stay rooted to your core values, no matter who you are, where you're showing up. So come back to that inner medicine, that inner nature, that true nature that you were seen in, and your creation spark. You were seen as this divine being. Can you come home to that every day and remember who you are?
>> Myrna McCallum : Love that. Let me ask you this. How did you come to this work and how did you come to writing on these real heart centered healing, topics?
>> Asha Frost: So I have been a very sensitive soul since the day I was born, since the day I was created, I think. And being highly sensitive has, I think, brought me into my heart constantly, over and over again, torn it apart, fractured it, broken it. I think oftentimes I keep on thinking how the world I'll, I'll go on Instagram, see all the things that break my heart and I think, oh, what is the mending that needs to happen here? So I tend to feel like I am, I'm coming from a heart centered place always. That's just maybe the nature of how I was created. And walking through my own healing is what I share, is what I teach, is what I help others with. I think that's how we can all help others, is we are. We might not have a PhD in something, but we do have that beautiful, connection to our lived experience. And all of the times that our heart has been fractured and we've mended it and that becomes medicine that you can share the wisdom with others. So I think it's through walking, walking it, walking it, living it, moving through it, and the highs and the lows. And I'm never shy to say, like, I am not healed and I'm going to be doing this walk for the rest of my life till I go to the spirit world. I'm learning constantly, with everyone, right? So I think if we can be humble enough to acknowledge that, then I think that's how we're going to mend humanity, ah, in some way.
>> Myrna McCallum : My God, I love that. I love that. And I love your declaration that you will not be healed in this lifetime because there are so many people out there who present this idea, like, they. They found the secret sauce to, like, healing and like, you could be like me if you just sign up for, like, whatever this is, right? And because I. I find so many people are suffering and are hurting and are seeking, they will focus. And I've been this person, like, I've been this person who suffered, who's been wounded, who's been like, lost, empty, all of the things. So I'm not sure why, but the tendency for me was to always look outside of myself for the thing that was going to sell me. And it only came with age, honestly, age and I don't know, like, moments in my life that got me to see that the truth is everything I was seeking was already inside of me. Like, nobody could offer me anything that, I couldn't offer myself. And so back to you Are the medicine, like, why that is such a powerful title and why that is such an incredibly powerful message. I. I want people to read this book because I know right now a lot of people are struggling with burnout and toxic stress and grappling with their own intergenerational traumas and all the things that they inherited from their lineage, and they're looking for something. And so I invite those listeners who have been doing the yoga classes and the Pilates and going to the meditation workshops in Florida and all of the different things that maybe if you see stood still, sat still long enough and went inward, you might find what you're looking for.
>> Asha Frost: M. Yes. And I also want to presence like also dream time, right? Like those things that we've. The colonial constructs have been like, oh, those aren't important ways of learning and being. But yeah, rest peeps. Rest and sleep. And know that your dream times informing you with so many brilliant wisdom bits, you know, and, sitting with the land, those things. There's going to be tons of wisdom there. That's where your medicine is. It's all just laying there waiting to be uncovered.
>> Myrna McCallum : Exactly. It's true. So I'm going to ask a question. I'm going to pull up my phone because my friend Susan Rawlings, who, Who told me, Omar, I was just like, with Asha Frost, you have to, you have to talk to her. oh, and she also sent me, daytime rest with turtle medicine. A guided practice. A guided practice by you. And apparently this meditation is available online. Can you tell me a little bit about it?
>> Asha Frost: Yeah. So I have a few meditations that are available through audible. So you can get them through audible or you can get them through Spotify. there are some rest meditations because I speak about rest so deeply. So there's one that's like, it's all animal spirit medicine. So it's bear. So bear starts you off if you have trouble sleeping. And everybody who's done it, who's given me feedback, says they don't get past bare. They always fall asleep before the next one. So then it moves into some like, creation, manifesting and then finding your. Your purpose in those ways. So your, your consciousness is listening as you're sleeping and resting. Those are available on audible and Spotify. And the daytime rest is for those burnout moments where you're like, I just need a 20 minute, sort of like a catnap, but just like, you know, just to get some restoration. So they're healing meditations and I would love everyone to download them if you. If you need that support, because I'm in love with them. I'm very proud of them.
>> Myrna McCallum : Amazing. Amazing. And is there a follow up to you are the Medicine?
>> Asha Frost: I am just doing a book proposal right now, as we speak. I'm writing a book proposal. So it's going to be, around dismantling some of these. These wellness space things that we talked about today. So. And how we can come into more of a cyclical way of living.
>> Myrna McCallum : Love it. Love it. I'm going to be watching for it, Asha. Okay, so Susan wanted me to ask you, what is your regular wellness routine?
>> Asha Frost: M. Oh, my goodness. Well, I'll be really honest right now because this is new. Right now. I've started a new diet. This is really in wellness, and I've done a million diets over my time trying to heal lupus. I'm starting, a new diet that feels a little bit intense. It's the carnivore diet. And so. But I'm trying to eat the way our ancestors did and seeing if that's going to nourish my body in the way that, the way that I'm needing right now. So that is a very routine thing because I had to be very mentally clear to be able to do this and meet that call from my body to say, we need a different way. So there's that. There's daily salt bath, daily walks. It's that simple right now because my children are still young. So, yeah, being a mama and a parent, you know, I have to dance with those things too.
>> Myrna McCallum: Love it. Love it. Thank you, Asha, for this conversation. It's an important conversation. The work you're doing is critical for the reasons I have already, like, explained, but also because I know so many of my listeners are struggling so much right now with mental exhaustion and burnout and all of the things that are draining the life force from them. So any anything I can bring to them that might help them find their way back to themselves, is is a voice that I want to bring to my podcast. You're certainly one of those voices. So thank you. Thank you for the work you do.
>> Asha Frost: Oh, miigwech thank you so much for having me. This has been a great conversation and I've learned so much from you, so thank you.